Big Team is Pathetic

Games Other Halo
1

That’s right, BTB in its current form is a pathetic lump of dung. (Long read–last paragraph sums up)

Why? It’s not fun–from a BTB standpoint anyway. The gameplay is more like Team Slayer, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing–it’s just that I’m playing Big Team to play Big Team. If I wanted Team Slayer, I would play Team Slayer.

The BTB playlist needs a major overhaul. 343 has said that they will update the MM system so that it will not only help match you with other people who have DLC, but that those maps will be higher in the voting order. This is a good thing.

It’s not enough though. The last BTB games I’ve played have been on crappy community maps. What makes them crappy?

-lack of cover
-lack of vehicles
-poor spawning
-too little/too many power weapons
-excessive grayness

Now I realize that the last one can’t be helped, but come on! Why are these maps the top of the voting list EVERY time? Why didn’t the designers put just one more Warthog for each team, one neutral Revenant, a Banshee, a Ghost…WHY? Some of these maps could actually be fun with more vehicles.

Vehicles are the signature of BTB. They range from being a crapload of fun to screw around in or to transport yourself (Mongoose) to being all out killing machines (Scorpion). They ensure that a battle can always be found immediately (no matter the map size), that you have something to work towards with you teamates (taking a rampaging Scorpion/Banshee/Wraith down), and that your otherwise rough day can suddenly brighten if you’re the one that got the tank.

Reach ruined a lot of this, though, right off the bat. The DMR is the main culprit; a handheld rifle should not be able to cause a tank from 500+ years in the future to blow up. Even worse, most of the time the DMR is spawned with, not just picked up. Instead of creating safe, diverse spawns, Bungie just made the DMR a Splaser in disquise and buffed Armor Lock. Way to go.

Go back to Halo 3. You’re on Valhalla and just hopped in a shiny new Banhsee. Those little ants on the ground don’t have a chance to take you down, except the precious missile pod in the base and the opposing Banshee. Most of the time, either the Banshees would engage in a dogfight, with the winner being immediately finished off by the missile pod OR the two pilots would happily avoid each other get to Splattering.

Fly back to Reach–you’re on Boneyard and you just grabbed the ONE neutral Banshee. Instead of preceding to dogfight with the other, nonexistant Banshee or to dodge incoming missiles, you run for your sorry life to the back of you base to get away from those DMRs. The Scorpion doesn’t bother you, it’s already been demolished. The only thing in your way is the Rocket Launcher (not too bad), Plasma Launcher (also not too bad), Sniper (ouch), and those DMRs. The upgraded Reach manueverability of the Banshee isn’t enough, and your reign is short, splatterless, and filled with flips.

Still, the doomed Banshee is much more fun than…hmm, a doomed Mongoose on Wayont? Maybe Trident? Or even Utopie, IMO a severly downgraded variant of Paradiso (one of the few fun BTB maps, which has effectively disappeared). I know Paradiso gets a lot of hate, but I don’t know why. Each base gets a Warthog, Ghost, Banshee, Scorpion, and a few Mongeese. Spawns aren’t ideal, but they’re a hell of a lot better than some other maps. The tanks can try to move through the crouded, cover-dotted areas and into the opposing base, or hang out in the middle area. Banshees must duke it out mostly undisturbed (except for DMRs/Snipers). Warthogs avoid the tanks by going the back way, jetpackers attempt to jack the tanks, and everyone’s happy. If you do fall into a spawn trapping, there are caves, plenty of cover, a solid base, AL, and DMRs.

Back to Wayont. You fall into a spawntrap, and there’s no cover, an easily accessible base, no vehicles of your own to fight back (once they respawn), no power weapons within your base, and nowhere to go if you do survive long enough to get there.

I could rage for hours about what’s wrong with BTB. Hemmorhage is a disappointment, to say the least–IMO, spawns are diverse enough that the Scorpion should be reintroduced, along with Banshees/Falcons. Renegrade is much better, but I don’t see why there are not tanks.

So what does BTB need to become fun again?

It needs a new Sandtrap, that’s what. Just think about the map for a while.

The whole place is filled with cover. The giant ridge protects the other side, wierd pyramid things sprout up everywhere (along with pillars), and the hilly terrain makes it easy to hide–for a while. Each spawn gets two Warthogs, a chopper (glory days), and a few Mongeese. The Elephants are ripe for the taking, and they’re a friggin’ base THAT MOVES. Spawntrap that!

A neutral Banshee is fought over, but a Splaser and missile pod assure the losers that there isn’t too much to fear. In the heavy variant (which is always more fun, IMO), there are multiple Scorpions and Wraiths. Hoo rah.

What does Reach have? Pathetic amounts of vehicles. Low movement speed, accurate and overpowered DMRs, and few to no vehicles. Why? Why aren’t the maps made smaller with more cover, better spawns, and more vehicles? We have the tools. Forge 2.0 is more than enough. So why don’t we have good maps?

2

You made me feel proud =, )

Yeah, I reeally miss the scorpion and the fun things you could do with an Elephant…

3

I fully agree. I think the problem can be identified more concisely though.

The DMR. That’s your main culprit. Think about it.

Quantity-wise, there are a comparable number of vehicles on Reach BTB maps as there were in Halo 3 (More, in some cases. Think: Hemmorrhage vs. Valhalla). Yet, the damage tables provide that a coordinated team of DMR wielders can decimate a banshee in some 10 seconds of sustained fire. There are plenty of vehicles, but it feels like there are less because the DMR rips them apart so fast.

Movement speed and less cover are also an issue, but only because ~90% of the time, you find yourself being peppered by a DMR from across the map and your only hope of survival is to find cover. Again, the maps themselves aren’t so much to blame as the DMR that forces everyone to hid behind rocks all game.

I think that the other issues would largely disappear if somehow the problem of the DMR was fixed. Whether that means taking it out of the loadouts, or modifying damage tables to make vehicles more formidable, BTB is in definite need of a revision.

Oh, and plus, the ever-present problem of people driving the falcon or warthog away without a gunner. But I highly doubt a TU can fix that. :wink:

4

I agree with you on most of these points,
Wayont and Trident need to die, there are pretty balanced, but that came with the removal of the fun.

Although I don’t think vehicles need to be strengthened, I remember someone on Bungie calling them a “Glass Cannon” which fits nicely since if you look at a Tank Banshee, Guass Hog, they are all devastating and significantly more powerful that their Halo 3 counterparts. But can be severely damaged with weapons ypu spawn with.

I think the best thing to do would be to:
–drastically reduce the DMR anti-vehicle powers.
–Slightly increase vehicles damage resistance.
–yet decrease their power. EX: tank shouldnt kill warthog in one shot

5

lolbtb.

6

I find most of the time BTB gives me a headache in Reach.
I loved playing BTB in Halo 3 on Sandtrap.
Elephant <3

7

Threads like this make me wonder, What the hell Bungie was thinking when they made this game.

8

A single DMR cant wreck tanks, though team shotting will destroy it if they are weak but that’s about it. Over exaggeration and if you do manage take them out this way, you weren’t playing against a good team as keeping the vehicles alive and putting you respawn is the way to set up and control.

Sniper is another beast. I won’t argue that just one of these wrecks vehicles even more. I have no idea why this thing wrecks vehicles when it’s primary purpose is to take out infantry from long range.

9

All you guys blaming the DMR are 100% right, maybe I didn’t stress that enough…

I firmly believe that AAs are NOT the culprit, although they definitely DID change the balance slightly. And

> I agree with you on most of these points,
> Wayont and Trident need to die, there are pretty balanced, but that came with the removal of the fun.
>
> Although I don’t think vehicles need to be strengthened, I remember someone on Bungie calling them a “Glass Cannon” which fits nicely since if you look at a Tank Banshee, Guass Hog, they are all devastating and significantly more powerful that their Halo 3 counterparts. But can be severely damaged with weapons ypu spawn with.
>
> I think the best thing to do would be to:
> --drastically reduce the DMR anti-vehicle powers.
> --Slightly increase vehicles damage resistance.
> --yet decrease their power. EX: tank shouldnt kill warthog in one shot

Mostly right, but did the H3 Scorpion kill Warthogs in one hit? H3 had the best BTB IMO, and I remember it always killing Warthogs right away.

And yes, I do realize that was just an example. I could definitely back a slight
Banshee bomb nerf/cannon buff, maybe less flips, something like that, but ONLY if the DMR (and Sniper) were drastically nerfed.

While on the topic, what’s with the Banshee’s and Ghost’s limited boost? That’s just stupid in every possible way and has no reason whatsoever.

And that Warthog comment made me remember something that’s been on the back of my mind for a long time–the (standard) Warthog turret sucks. It’s range/accuracy just makes me laugh and doesn’t do nearly enough damage against infantry (although this could be a side effect of the short range). It does fine against Banshees and other vehicles though.

10

> A single DMR cant wreck tanks, though team shotting will destroy it if they are weak but that’s about it. Over exaggeration and if you do manage take them out this way, you weren’t playing against a good team as keeping the vehicles alive and putting you respawn is the way to set up and control.
>
>
> Sniper is another beast. I won’t argue that just one of these wrecks vehicles even more. I have no idea why this thing wrecks vehicles when it’s primary purpose is to take out infantry from long range.

It’s actually pretty easy to take out a tank single-handedly. It takes a while, but just shoot the treads and/or back vent until the driver’s canopy pops off. Then just shoot the helpless driver out.

11

> > A single DMR cant wreck tanks, though team shotting will destroy it if they are weak but that’s about it. Over exaggeration and if you do manage take them out this way, you weren’t playing against a good team as keeping the vehicles alive and putting you respawn is the way to set up and control.
> >
> >
> > Sniper is another beast. I won’t argue that just one of these wrecks vehicles even more. I have no idea why this thing wrecks vehicles when it’s primary purpose is to take out infantry from long range.
>
> It’s actually pretty easy to take out a tank single-handedly. It takes a while, but just shoot the treads and/or back vent until the driver’s canopy pops off. Then just shoot the helpless driver out.

Again, this is only possible if the other team and the tank driver is bad because it takes awhile to take out by you’re self. The tank driver will call you out (if he’s good), the sniper owns you or if you are vulnerable, get blasted by the tank itself. Plus the amount magazines you waste trying to take out the tank, it’s just not feasible. Go up against a good BTB team and take on the take you’re self, i assure you, you will die every single time to other DMRs, Sniper, Warthogs etc.

12

> Threads like this make me wonder, What the hell Bungie was thinking when they made this game.

They were taking opinions from the community.
That’s what Bungie was doing.

13

> Threads like this make me wonder, What the hell Bungie was thinking when they made this game.

They were thinking “Hit and run!” as that is precisely what they did with Reach. They weren’t held accountable by the community and as such a good portion of the community saw fit to abandon the game much the same way Bungie abandoned them. Then 343 came and adopted what was left of the Halo community.

14

> > > A single DMR cant wreck tanks, though team shotting will destroy it if they are weak but that’s about it. Over exaggeration and if you do manage take them out this way, you weren’t playing against a good team as keeping the vehicles alive and putting you respawn is the way to set up and control.
> > >
> > >
> > > Sniper is another beast. I won’t argue that just one of these wrecks vehicles even more. I have no idea why this thing wrecks vehicles when it’s primary purpose is to take out infantry from long range.
> >
> > It’s actually pretty easy to take out a tank single-handedly. It takes a while, but just shoot the treads and/or back vent until the driver’s canopy pops off. Then just shoot the helpless driver out.
>
> Again, this is only possible if the other team and the tank driver is bad because it takes awhile to take out by you’re self. The tank driver will call you out (if he’s good), the sniper owns you or if you are vulnerable, get blasted by the tank itself. Plus the amount magazines you waste trying to take out the tank, it’s just not feasible. Go up against a good BTB team and take on the take you’re self, i assure you, you will die every single time to other DMRs, Sniper, Warthogs etc.

True. A lot of the time you just get a loner in the tank though. And personally, I never get anyone on my team or the other’s who use their mics. Really annoying, actually

15

A single standard weapon which can easily destroy vehicles is fail anyway. Same counts for the sniper. Pathetic.

Halo 3 never had problems with vehicles. You actualy had to fight for the power weapons. In Reachs BTB you spawn with it >_>

16

Did Bungie’s Reach forum retreat to these forums? To me, I think that the maps already are outdated. They need to be updated by better map designers.

17

> Sniper is another beast. I won’t argue that just one of these wrecks vehicles even more. I have no idea why this thing wrecks vehicles when it’s primary purpose is to take out infantry from long range.

You seem to be missing the main point about the sniper rifle. You can use it for its “primary purpose” (according to who? Its purpose is to kill enemies, whether infantry or vehicle) and rack up a kill for each bullet if you’re good at it…or you can take out a vehicle, at the cost of most of your ammo. That’s the trade-off: lots of infantry, or one vehicle.

The DMR, however, could definitely use a range reduction. That thing is almost like a sniper rifle all by itself.

18

> And that Warthog comment made me remember something that’s been on the back of my mind for a long time–the (standard) Warthog turret sucks. It’s range/accuracy just makes me laugh and doesn’t do nearly enough damage against infantry (although this could be a side effect of the short range). It does fine against Banshees and other vehicles though.

Because can you imagine what the game would be like if it had realistic damage? You get a great driver in there and a halfway-decent gunner, and the other team would rage quit almost every time. Imagine not being able to take down a Warthog that keeps circling your base because it’s quickly killing everyone that engages it. With all the debates on vehicle/weapon relationships, it’s obvious that there will never be a perfect fix. We’re just going to have to live with powerful DMR’s and Armor Lock. I actually think the Warthog gun is perfect–it’s great for taking down enemy vehicles, but it’s not so strong and ranged that it dominates the map.

19

> > Sniper is another beast. I won’t argue that just one of these wrecks vehicles even more. I have no idea why this thing wrecks vehicles when it’s primary purpose is to take out infantry from long range.
>
> You seem to be missing the main point about the sniper rifle. You can use it for its “primary purpose” (according to who? Its purpose is to kill enemies, whether infantry or vehicle) and rack up a kill for each bullet if you’re good at it…or you can take out a vehicle, at the cost of most of your ammo. That’s the trade-off: lots of infantry, or one vehicle.
>
> The DMR, however, could definitely use a range reduction. That thing is almost like a sniper rifle all by itself.

Unless that vehicle is very weak, you are better off just taking out the Infantry or if they are brave enough, the turret gunner (both on tank and Warthog). Any good Sniper will tell you that as you waste ammo taking out vehicles that he/she may not even hit depending on skill.

I am probably being close minded about this; i mean it’s nice that it can wreck vehicles and it’s a good deterrent to Banshee abuse but overall the focus should be on the infantry. The Sniper only has so much ammo that you use before you run out.

Range reduction of the DMR? Not sure if agree with that since everyone can spawn with it in BTB. You can snipe them with it as much as they can to you; only difference is who has the better aim and skill. Still i can see why it is a problem though. After all, any gun that’s too good deserves a nerf, amrite?

20

> > And that Warthog comment made me remember something that’s been on the back of my mind for a long time–the (standard) Warthog turret sucks. It’s range/accuracy just makes me laugh and doesn’t do nearly enough damage against infantry (although this could be a side effect of the short range). It does fine against Banshees and other vehicles though.
>
> Because can you imagine what the game would be like if it had realistic damage? You get a great driver in there and a halfway-decent gunner, and the other team would rage quit almost every time. Imagine not being able to take down a Warthog that keeps circling your base because it’s quickly killing everyone that engages it. With all the debates on vehicle/weapon relationships, it’s obvious that there will never be a perfect fix. We’re just going to have to live with powerful DMR’s and Armor Lock. I actually think the Warthog gun is perfect–it’s great for taking down enemy vehicles, but it’s not so strong and ranged that it dominates the map.

You misunderstood me, I don’t want “realistic damage,” I just want better accuracy at range, like Halo 3. Also, overheating is just stupid, and I’m sure any turret operator will agree (especially in Falcons–a Warthog can take cover, but a Falcon just has to watch that Banshee kill it).

As for the sniper, the better option is almost always to take out the vehicle–it’s either it spawnkilling you indefinitely (assuming you don’t spawn with a DMR) and/or wrecking your vehicles with a few guys dead or the vehicle getting killed, allowing your teamates to mop up the other people. This would work, except it only takes four shots to kill a perfect Banshee, which leaves plenty for the people. On top of that, the Banshee is almost always hurt. Just food for thought