Betrayal Logic

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

I would like to post a few suggestions for improvements to the betrayal logic for H5. Unlike some, I am very much a fan of friendly fire. I think it is an important part of the game. Personally, I would like to see FF in EVERY playlist, but I can understand if there are some where it would be turned off. However, I would like to see some improvements in how the game handles betrayals.

1. You cannot betray a teammate occupying the same vehicle.

I’ve been booted a couple of times for shooting a Banshee with a Wraith plasma ball and having the splash damage kill my Wraith and the gunner. That event should not count as a betrayal. There are many times where your vehicle is going to blow up anyway, so shooting something at close range that results in your vehicle blowing up should never be a betrayal. It should count as a kill for the other team instead.

2. If you kill / damage an enemy (or an enemy is in the immediate vicinity), that event should not count as a betrayal for the first occurrence in a match. Subsequent occurrences should add to the friendly fire total.

KoTH on Ragnarok . . . one of our guys is crouched in the hill. Multiple enemies running to the hill. Tank round blows up enemies . . . and also our guy. That should not be a betrayal.

3. Unoccupied vehicles cannot cause betrayals.

Eject from burning Banshee. Banshee falls and crushes teammate. Should not be a betrayal.

4. Melee attacks cause no damage to friendlies.

This is one aspect of FF that can be dispensed with. Friendly fire is there to make play a bit more “realistic”. There’s no added realism with the chance of trying to punch an enemy, but accidentally punching a teammate instead. Melee attacks on friendlies are virtually always intentional, and no gameplay aspect is lost by eliminating that ability. I would put swords here, too (but not hammers, as those have a damage radius).

5. Blowing up / damaging your own vehicles (say within 50m of initial spawn) - even if unoccupied - automatically exceeds the betrayal threshold if it occurs within the first 10 seconds of the match.

It takes some time for enemies to reach your base. Anyone plasma nading their own vehicles within that timespan is griefing. I have not seen an exception to this. The window needs to be small - 10 seconds is plenty - because there are definitely strategic reasons to blow up unoccupied vehicles later on. But right at the beginning of the game, there is no reason other than griefing.

6. EMPing an occupied, friendly vehicle automatically exceeds the betrayal threshold if the vehicle is either (a) full; (b) not boarded by the EMPing player before the EMP ends; or, (c) is destroyed or boarded by enemy players while EMP’d.

The only reason to EMP a friendly vehicle is to get in it as a gunner or passenger. If you’re not close enough to immediately board it, you’re griefing. This type of griefing occurs all of the time currently, as it is a free way to betray teammates.

7. The “Grif” suggestion: the first time a betrayal threshold is exceeded, boot is not an option.

Instead, the betraying player (if not forgiven) appears as orange to all friendly players and aim assist / magnetism is enabled (but not for him - he sees no status change himself). Teammates are able to freely shoot him without adding to their friendly damage. After he’s killed 3 times, his status resets. This acts as a disincentive to deliberately betray. Booting does not provide the same disincentive, as booting does not affect your K/D. If he subsequently exceeds the friendly damage threshold in the same match, the option to boot appears, as the disincentive has obviously been insufficient.

8. The betrayal threshold is calculated on an EVENT basis, not a total-damage basis.

See Adam1076’s post below. A rocket that kills 2 teammates should count the same as a rocket that kills one. Two separate rockets that kill teammates should count for more. So for each betrayal EVENT, the friendly that was dealt the greatest damage gets added to the betrayal threshold total.

General vehicle damage suggestions

  1. Make entering friendly vehicles (tanks, specifically) as gunner easier. If the vehicle is occupied, getting in as gunner should not cause the driver to have to stop and wait lest he inadvertently kill you (or make you want to EMP it to avoid that problem). I don’t attempt to get in as a Scorpion or Wraith gunner very often because doing so often ends in a suicide. If the vehicle is occupied, all you should have to do is run up to the side (just like you’d board it normally) and be given the option to be gunner. You should not have to climb atop it and lose most of your shields just to occupy the turret.

  2. Improve the splatter logic. If the relative velocity of the vehicle to player is too high, boarding should not be an option. I’ve been boarded in Banshees while boosting, and that should not be able to happen. On the other hand, if it is below a certain threshold, it should not cause damage (the Ghost-tap = betrayal should be eliminated).

2

I think I would be OK with everything you wrote about betrayals, and even regarding the vehicle damage, I hate being killed by an almost non-moving vehicle.

3

I had to laugh at your 1st scenario. Sorry, but i just find it silly that some will boot you for close range explosion that was necessary. Had you not shot, the Banshee could have killed you both lol, and he would be pissed. I’m getting weak lol ha

Anyways, I feel like Xbone should be much better with determining between when to give boot option and not. Lets just say Xbone calculates betrayal by determining how far an enemy is from you. So that would mean you are more likely to get the boot option if Xbone determines that no1 was around.

Most accidental betrayals happen when enemy if around you and another teammate. That alone can help reduce that random option to boot. I just think Xbone could possible do that and then some.

4

> I had to laugh at your 1st scenario. Sorry, but i just find it silly that some will boot you for close range explosion that was necessary.

I had it happen twice last night alone. Once was a rocket hog, and in the very next game, a Scorpion. Lol.

5

I agree with all of the betrayal logic choices. I think they should still be called “betrayals” (simply to indicate how the player died), but should not count towards the boot threshold.

The Grif suggestion is very innovative and could work, but it would need some kind of tutorial or message or something so that players don’t have to question why some random teammate is orange or, if the player is Grif, why his teammates suddenly decided to gang up on him.

6

> The Grif suggestion is very innovative and could work, but it would need some kind of tutorial or message or something so that players don’t have to question why some random teammate is orange or, if the player is Grif, why his teammates suddenly decided to gang up on him.

I’m least tied to the Grif idea . . . but, on the other hand, it could end up being far more effective at limiting intentional betrayals. I think a simple message from Jeff like “Turncoat in orange,” (for teammates) and, “You are a turncoat,” (for the betrayer) or similar would work for the explanation.

7

I don’t agree with No.2

If you fire a tank round into the hill with your mate in there, regardless of enemy numbers, that is betrayal.

8

I agree with all of them except the Grif suggestion (Which, while amusing, would be confusing for a lot of people I bet)

Maybe make it so they can’t pick up or use Power Weapons or enter vehicles for a short time? With a message informing them of that of course. That seems to be a good amount of the incentive behind intentional betraying right there: “I want that power weapon!” and “That’s my vehicle!”
The ‘If I can’t have it neither can you’ way of thinking.

I’d also suggest that if your vehicle gets blown up, it doesn’t count as a betrayal when the passangers die. Slightly similar to #1 but a bit different. It’s only happened to me a few times in H4, but would happen with alarming regularity in Reach - and I’ve been booted for it almost half the time.

Situation 1: You’d be driving the falcon, and then someone lasers it. You die and your gunner dies, but you “Betrayed” the gunner.

Situation 2: I’m driving a wraith and turn a corner to see an enemy wraith. We both fire at each other and my wraith blows up. I “betrayed” the gunner and got booted.

I’ve had this happen maybe two or three times in my whole time playing Halo 4, but it would happen once every other game in Reach.

9

> I don’t agree with No.2
>
> If you fire a tank round into the hill with your mate in there, regardless of enemy numbers, that is betrayal.

But it is often the right thing to do in order to win the game. You should not be booted for that. Game logic should support winning the game. Grifball is the most extreme example of that . . . betraying to have your teammates respawn at your goal to stop a score is a key part of strategy in that game. That’s why betrayals are off in Grifball.

If you (like Vektor) want to still call it a betrayal, that’s fine. No problem with that. But you should not be booted for it.

10

> I agree with all of them except the Grif suggestion (Which, while amusing, would be confusing for a lot of people I bet)
>
> Maybe make it so they can’t pick up or use Power Weapons or enter vehicles for a short time? With a message informing them of that of course. That seems to be a good amount of the incentive behind intentional betraying right there: “I want that power weapon!” and “That’s my vehicle!”
> The ‘If I can’t have it neither can you’ way of thinking.

Perhaps I’m wrong, but I think the Grif suggestion would not be confusing for long. Maybe the first time, but after that, it would be pretty easy. However, I think that’s the least of the ideas.

The power weapon thing is a good idea, too, but I don’t think it would be any less confusing. Just an alternate way of having some penalty to dissuade people from betraying. Either way, I’m cool with it.

> I’d also suggest that if your vehicle gets blown up, it doesn’t count as a betrayal when the passangers die. Slightly similar to #1 but a bit different. It’s only happened to me a few times in H4, but would happen with alarming regularity in Reach - and I’ve been booted for it almost half the time.
>
> Situation 1: You’d be driving the falcon, and then someone lasers it. You die and your gunner dies, but you “Betrayed” the gunner.
>
> Situation 2: I’m driving a wraith and turn a corner to see an enemy wraith. We both fire at each other and my wraith blows up. I “betrayed” the gunner and got booted.

I’ve had this happen maybe two or three times in my whole time playing Halo 4, but it would happen once every other game in Reach.
[/quote]
I don’t think you get a betrayal for #1 in H4, so if you did in Reach, they already took care of it.

For #2, the reason you get the betrayal in H4 is because of the splash damage associated with your own plasma ball - not the enemy Wraith.

11

The absolute most annoying thing in Halo multiplayer is it’s seemingly inconsistent betrayal rules.

It’s annoying as hell because there are people who will follow you, and say you get in a vehicle they wanted (Mantis, as an example) or take a weapon they want, will damage you over and over so you have no course of action but to betray them or die. And most of the time, I don’t get the option to boot him, because the enemy killed me.

I don’t know what the exact criterion are, but if it’s blatant the guy is ruining my game, there should be something in place to detect it. I get it if it’s not blatant, but I’ve literally had guys who would follow me around just shooting me because I took the Mantis, something I rarely do.

12

> 2. If you kill / damage an enemy (or an enemy is in the immediate vicinity), that event should not count as a betrayal.

I think it should.

Sure, there are situations were betrayaling a team mate is an understandable decision but how do you want to differentiate that from simply killing your team mate together with the enemy only to get the kill or from people that are just careless/reckless and blindly bomb you and the enemy away with grenades instead of trying to actual help you with shooting at him/her?

Eventually it will still support reckless/careless tactics and game and team play.

Additionally, perhaps every player should get one “free-betrayal” per game, considering accidental/unfortunate betrayals.

13

> > Additionally, perhaps every player should get one “free-betrayal” per game, considering accidental/unfortunate betrayals.
>
> I can buy that. I agree with your points. I will update the suggestions in the original post. While some games the situation may occur multiple times where betraying is the right decision, most games it doesn’t occur at all, and when it does, it’s only once or twice.

14

I also want to add something. I think betrayal threshold should only be exceeded over multiple shots, not multiple kills. For example in Halo Reach, there were two warthogs, both with gunners, near the beginning of the match, the lead one enemy, the second one friendly. I aim for the enemy with a rocket, don’t lead enough and hit the friendly hog. Although it was only one misfire, I still got booted because I killed two people. I think it should be per shot. If you betray people with two separate shots, that brings up the boot screen.

15

> I also want to add something. I think betrayal threshold should only be exceeded over multiple shots, not multiple kills. For example in Halo Reach, there were two warthogs, both with gunners, near the beginning of the match, the lead one enemy, the second one friendly. I aim for the enemy with a rocket, don’t lead enough and hit the friendly hog. Although it was only one misfire, I still got booted because I killed two people. I think it should be per shot. If you betray people with two separate shots, that brings up the boot screen.

Good point, and added.

16

On a slightly different note, I think that if you betray a player you should not be allowed to pick up their weapons. This would prevent you from getting killed by that guy who wants your sniper rifle.

17

Yeah the booting system needs to become a little smarter.

18

Why not just disable Friendly Fire entirely? Seems like the smart thing to do, especially when trolls generally go unpunished.

19

> Why not just disable Friendly Fire entirely? Seems like the smart thing to do, especially when trolls generally go unpunished.

Because gameplay with FF disabled is very different than with it enabled. In IS, there is no penalty for running in front of your teammates with your sword, or throwing grenades into hallways where your teammates are already engaged, or sending volleys of rockets at your own players to get that one bad guy before they do.

Many of us do not like the gameplay that occurs when FF is disabled. You may not mind - and you are perfectly entitled to that opinion. For others who do mind, having better betrayal logic is important.

20

With the example of the wraith that I gave, we were both a distance away, and my wraith got destroyed while I was “reloading”. It wasn’t the mortar shot from my wraith that caused it.