I posted this over on the reddit forums and I’ll duplicate it here to continue discussion (since I think there might be more people on this forum)
About me: I’m going to preface this with the fact that the following is my opinion on the state of the matchup(s). I’m a T1 Masters player in SC2 and have played just about every major RTS released in the last decade or so …
So since launch I’ve been playing a variety of commanders to get an appreciation for the game - super-lately I’ve been playing a lot of Atriox. This is basically my take on why USNC commanders are now, and will continue to be, the top pick for any competitive play.
Snipers vs Elite Rangers:
There is no comparison here. Snipers are far and away better in every regard. Put them inside a garrison and they get incredible range to hit things halfway across the map. I’ve seen snipers from 2 different garrisons hitting my army as it attempts to kill the first garrison. More importantly, they counter the Banished answer to the grizzly - the hunter(s). For this reason, the sniper transitions well into the late game where elite rangers typically don’t.
Early marine/sniper rushes:
The fact that the sniper comes out as a T1 unit (the Elite Rangers are a T2 unit) means the mouth breathing marine/sniper players get free and easy wins because dealing with snipers is extremely difficult in the early game for Banished commanders. Turrets are not a great answer since the marine grenade ability is extremely strong (and getting stronger in the next patch). Choppers are somewhat effective but getting nerfed in the upcoming patch also.
Elite units:
The scarab is strong, no doubt, and I feel like this is a valuable unit - though I’m not sure yet if it’s overpowered really. Many players have been able to deal with the scarabs with mac blasts and grizzlies and/or other vehicle units. On the other hand, vultures are equally effective in straight-up combat (though somewhat vulnerable to reavers), but get the added benefit of one-shotting bases in the late game with 5-6 vultures. Run around to the back of any base and blow it up before the Banished player can get their units in place. There is no Banished analog to this.
Hero power matchup:
Eradication is extremely expensive and top tier. Mac blast is T3 and much cheaper. Even though eradication might be slightly better - the more frequent and cheaper mac blasts win out IMO. On top of that, it free’s Forge’s final tier up for the grizzly drop - which is insanely strong. Those 3 units are really difficult to kill, and can be dropped immediately in battle. Meaning in a 120 vs 120 fight the forge player often gets the upper-hand.
Recommendations:
Sniper+marine rushes are borderline impossible to stop if executed well. I think the elite ranger could come down to T1, or snipers moved to T2 with hunters and cyclops. Grunts are unhelpful here. Perhaps giving the grunt a better ability (mines suck) would help. - I think the sniper could be an interesting and diverse unit with its current range if the damage was neutered slightly. Especially for cutter snipers - there’s no risk to the snipers because they sit so far back and run just as fast as grunts (if not faster). If the marines die out in front the snipers simply retreat. - Moving eradication to the same tier as mac blast, or reducing the cost of invulnerability to counter it, would be a nice change.
Excellent! I saw you on reddit and suggested you to come here. I’m really hoping for the post-release feedback balance patch to hit next Monday. I can’t 1v1 anymore, I even finished the campaign on legendary hahaha.
Played a bunch of atriox yesterday vs a rushing cutter player. He just takes all the towers - I can’t stand up on open ground so I retreat to my base with a turret
Game only gets worse as time goes on since grenade splash is more effective the more units are on the field. In addition the snipers can detect the mines laid by grunts … unless I’m missing something obvious here I don’t see how this is a winnable matchup at all.
The fact that the elite ranger is T2 really makes things difficult.
I’ve tried some alternatives:
Making a bunch of choppers
Hero rush + grunts <— admittedly not bad but costs me a building - which I can either subtract from the apex or supply pads which restrict unit production. It seems like eventually the hero dies to marine grenades just the same
on the other hand banished leader powers are insanly overpowered.
if we ask for a unsc unit nerf or banished unit buffs… we have to consider to tone down the banished leader powers…
> 2533274814771136;4:
> on the other hand banished leader powers are insanly overpowered.
> if we ask for a unsc unit nerf or banished unit buffs… we have to consider to tone down the banished leader powers…
What did you have in mind specifically? Eradication is very strong - but also very expensive
The rest of them seem fine at first glance. Maybe buff Isabel’s powers :P. Maybe with better units Decimus will see more play too
> 2533274814771136;4:
> on the other hand banished leader powers are insanly overpowered.
> if we ask for a unsc unit nerf or banished unit buffs… we have to consider to tone down the banished leader powers…
The only OP banished leader power is Atriox’s death beam. Even still, it’s not nearly as bad as Anders “spawn 100’s of sentinels out of nowhere” and I’m not even gonna talk about Combat Salvage once Tanks get buffed. “Forge is so OP!!” I can already hear it now…
> 2535471149170617;7:
> > 2533274814771136;4:
> > on the other hand banished leader powers are insanly overpowered.
> > if we ask for a unsc unit nerf or banished unit buffs… we have to consider to tone down the banished leader powers…
>
> The only OP banished leader power is Atriox’s death beam. Even still, it’s not nearly as bad as Anders “spawn 100’s of sentinels out of nowhere” and I’m not even gonna talk about Combat Salvage once Tanks get buffed. “Forge is so OP!!” I can already hear it now…
Decimus and Atriox both have passive and active leader abilities that can turn the tide of a fight (specifically the health siphon). Their choppers are also a solid counter and much stronger than the UNSC. Not to mention the Suicide grunts.
The only real play is a sentinel or vehicle rush. The marine rush doesn’t need to be touched as it is one of the easiest things to counter. I started a thread last night after playing a Decimus player, it changed my opinion enough where I think that they have a heavy advantage throughout the entire game.
Just have to play smart and understand that your opponent is under no obligation to wait until you’re ready to attack.
I finally managed to counter a Cutter infantry rush!
I quickly teched to level 2 and turtled up with turrets and a shield generator. Managed to fight off his first rush with grunts/marauder with Atriox’s Chosen. After that I mass produced marauders, grunts, and locusts and managed to win.
Don’t know if these results could be reproduced, this cutter wasn’t the most tactically sound, but it gave me hope.
> 2533274814771136;4:
> on the other hand banished leader powers are insanly overpowered.
> if we ask for a unsc unit nerf or banished unit buffs… we have to consider to tone down the banished leader powers…
I would argue against that belief. I feel like for the most part leader powers are balanced across the board. Eradication? Cutter has Close Air Support. Displacement? Isabel can hack vehicles. Boundless Fury or Siphon? Anders can summon sentinels through kodiak shells.
Leader powers are all different, but I wouldn’t say that one faction has the more overpowered ones.
> 2533274927740213;10:
> > 2533274814771136;4:
> > Anders can summon sentinels through kodiak shells.
Any aggressor sentinels summoned to the battlefield, when destroyed OR expired, will count toward Anders’ ‘units lost’ counter, completely messing up your data.
> 2641843709998544;8:
> > 2535471149170617;7:
> > > 2533274814771136;4:
> > > on the other hand banished leader powers are insanly overpowered.
> > > if we ask for a unsc unit nerf or banished unit buffs… we have to consider to tone down the banished leader powers…
> >
> > The only OP banished leader power is Atriox’s death beam. Even still, it’s not nearly as bad as Anders “spawn 100’s of sentinels out of nowhere” and I’m not even gonna talk about Combat Salvage once Tanks get buffed. “Forge is so OP!!” I can already hear it now…
>
> Decimus and Atriox both have passive and active leader abilities that can turn the tide of a fight (specifically the health siphon). Their choppers are also a solid counter and much stronger than the UNSC. Not to mention the Suicide grunts.
>
> The only real play is a sentinel or vehicle rush. The marine rush doesn’t need to be touched as it is one of the easiest things to counter. I started a thread last night after playing a Decimus player, it changed my opinion enough where I think that they have a heavy advantage throughout the entire game.
>
> Just have to play smart and understand that your opponent is under no obligation to wait until you’re ready to attack.
Always love how the UNSC mains are always the ones claiming Banished are balanced or stronger than UNSC. You can’t blame them, who doesn’t like easy wins?
In some ways, the Banished is better than the UNSC. In others, the UNSC is better than the Banished. The concept is not new. It’s know as asymmetrical balance.
Check out MetaloidMonkey’s Twitch if you think the Banished are hopelessly underpowered.
> 2533274830489835;13:
> In some ways, the Banished is better than the UNSC. In others, the UNSC is better than the Banished. The concept is not new. It’s know as asymmetrical balance.
>
> Check out MetaloidMonkey’s Twitch if you think the Banished are hopelessly underpowered.
I’m all for asymmetrical balance. That’s what keeps the game fresh. Now, winning as Banished isn’t imposible, I’ve won against UNSC before. But if the UNSC guy is semi competent then it is impossible. And that’s due to their units being terribly underpowered.
> 2533274821521504;14:
> > 2533274830489835;13:
> > In some ways, the Banished is better than the UNSC. In others, the UNSC is better than the Banished. The concept is not new. It’s know as asymmetrical balance.
> >
> > Check out MetaloidMonkey’s Twitch if you think the Banished are hopelessly underpowered.
>
> I’m all for asymmetrical balance. That’s what keeps the game fresh. Now, winning as Banished isn’t imposible, I’ve won against UNSC before. But if the UNSC guy is semi competent then it is impossible. And that’s due to their units being terribly underpowered.
This is just false. Read my other thread.
There is balance, you just have to play better. Granted, when you’re playing Anders I totally get your frustration and agree with you. But don’t blame the game because of a lack of strategy.
> 2641843709998544;15:
> > 2533274821521504;14:
> > > 2533274830489835;13:
> > > In some ways, the Banished is better than the UNSC. In others, the UNSC is better than the Banished. The concept is not new. It’s know as asymmetrical balance.
> > >
> > > Check out MetaloidMonkey’s Twitch if you think the Banished are hopelessly underpowered.
> >
> > I’m all for asymmetrical balance. That’s what keeps the game fresh. Now, winning as Banished isn’t imposible, I’ve won against UNSC before. But if the UNSC guy is semi competent then it is impossible. And that’s due to their units being terribly underpowered.
>
> This is just false. Read my other thread.
>
> There is balance, you just have to play better. Granted, when you’re playing Anders I totally get your frustration and agree with you. But don’t blame the game because of a lack of strategy.
You lost one game against decimus. ONE GAME. That doesn’t make a race balanced or overpowered.
> 2533274821521504;16:
> > 2641843709998544;15:
> > > 2533274821521504;14:
> > > > 2533274830489835;13:
> > > > In some ways, the Banished is better than the UNSC. In others, the UNSC is better than the Banished. The concept is not new. It’s know as asymmetrical balance.
> > > >
> > > > Check out MetaloidMonkey’s Twitch if you think the Banished are hopelessly underpowered.
> > >
> > > I’m all for asymmetrical balance. That’s what keeps the game fresh. Now, winning as Banished isn’t imposible, I’ve won against UNSC before. But if the UNSC guy is semi competent then it is impossible. And that’s due to their units being terribly underpowered.
> >
> > This is just false. Read my other thread.
> >
> > There is balance, you just have to play better. Granted, when you’re playing Anders I totally get your frustration and agree with you. But don’t blame the game because of a lack of strategy.
>
> You lost one game against decimus. ONE GAME. That doesn’t make a race balanced or overpowered.
LOL. I’ve lost before to more, but regardless, I play as Cutter, who is arguably the most balanced Leader. I made a thread because of how OP a certain ability was, but props to you for not taking advantage.
Again, you need to play DIFFERENTLY if you’re playing as the banished. They have significantly better leader powers and abilities, especially their passives.
> 2533274796783983;1:
> I posted this over on the reddit forums and I’ll duplicate it here to continue discussion (since I think there might be more people on this forum)
>
> About me: I’m going to preface this with the fact that the following is my opinion on the state of the matchup(s). I’m a T1 Masters player in SC2 and have played just about every major RTS released in the last decade or so …
> So since launch I’ve been playing a variety of commanders to get an appreciation for the game - super-lately I’ve been playing a lot of Atriox. This is basically my take on why USNC commanders are now, and will continue to be, the top pick for any competitive play.
>
> Snipers vs Elite Rangers:
> There is no comparison here. Snipers are far and away better in every regard. Put them inside a garrison and they get incredible range to hit things halfway across the map. I’ve seen snipers from 2 different garrisons hitting my army as it attempts to kill the first garrison. More importantly, they counter the Banished answer to the grizzly - the hunter(s). For this reason, the sniper transitions well into the late game where elite rangers typically don’t.
>
> Early marine/sniper rushes:
> The fact that the sniper comes out as a T1 unit (the Elite Rangers are a T2 unit) means the mouth breathing marine/sniper players get free and easy wins because dealing with snipers is extremely difficult in the early game for Banished commanders. Turrets are not a great answer since the marine grenade ability is extremely strong (and getting stronger in the next patch). Choppers are somewhat effective but getting nerfed in the upcoming patch also.
>
> Elite units:
> The scarab is strong, no doubt, and I feel like this is a valuable unit - though I’m not sure yet if it’s overpowered really. Many players have been able to deal with the scarabs with mac blasts and grizzlies and/or other vehicle units. On the other hand, vultures are equally effective in straight-up combat (though somewhat vulnerable to reavers), but get the added benefit of one-shotting bases in the late game with 5-6 vultures. Run around to the back of any base and blow it up before the Banished player can get their units in place. There is no Banished analog to this.
>
> Hero power matchup:
> Eradication is extremely expensive and top tier. Mac blast is T3 and much cheaper. Even though eradication might be slightly better - the more frequent and cheaper mac blasts win out IMO. On top of that, it free’s Forge’s final tier up for the grizzly drop - which is insanely strong. Those 3 units are really difficult to kill, and can be dropped immediately in battle. Meaning in a 120 vs 120 fight the forge player often gets the upper-hand.
>
> Recommendations:
> - Sniper+marine rushes are borderline impossible to stop if executed well. I think the elite ranger could come down to T1, or snipers moved to T2 with hunters and cyclops. Grunts are unhelpful here. Perhaps giving the grunt a better ability (mines suck) would help. - I think the sniper could be an interesting and diverse unit with its current range if the damage was neutered slightly. Especially for cutter snipers - there’s no risk to the snipers because they sit so far back and run just as fast as grunts (if not faster). If the marines die out in front the snipers simply retreat. - Moving eradication to the same tier as mac blast, or reducing the cost of invulnerability to counter it, would be a nice change.
I’m a banished main, and I can definitely attest to how imbalanced the early game is for them.
When it comes to unit costs, marines are 3 population and grunts are 2 population. Marines cost 150 resources, and grunts cost 100. By this logic, for the game to be balnced, 2 marines should be on about equal ground with 3 grunt squads- that sets populations and unit costs the same.
However, this isn’t the case. It isn’t even close. You need about 4 grunts to even begin to take down 2 marine squads. As a whole, if you spend the entire early game doing nothing but producing grunts and the opponent does nothing but produce marines, you will lose 100% of the time.
This is somewhat compensated for late game by the grunt upgrades. With pack brother, grunts will annihilate marines. But that can’t change the early game, when you can’t get that upgrade when you need it.
My solution would be to have one extra grunt in the squad from the start, and have pack brother upgrade JUST add the pack brother. It would probably balance the early game much more.
I don’t think many changes need to happen, rangers need to come down to tech 1, but they also need an upgrade at tech 3, to make them useful at late game, right now, Covenant infantry seem to get progressively worse the higher tech everyone is, forcing the Covenant player to go infantry and shrouds/engineers, while a UNSC player can effectively go strictly infantry forever and be fine, since Marines are way better than Grunts, flamethrowers are better than hammer brutes, and cyclops’ are better than hunters.
> 2533274927740213;9:
> I finally managed to counter a Cutter infantry rush!
>
> I quickly teched to level 2 and turtled up with turrets and a shield generator. Managed to fight off his first rush with grunts/marauder with Atriox’s Chosen. After that I mass produced marauders, grunts, and locusts and managed to win.
>
> Don’t know if these results could be reproduced, this cutter wasn’t the most tactically sound, but it gave me hope.
If you had time to hit second tech and build a shield, that was not a rush.