Balance changes I think should be implemented.

Overall I think the game is in a fairly decent place doesn’t mean it’s completely in a good place.

  1. Jackrabbit buff - I’m talking to bring it more in line with other units or at least increasing it’s damage towards non-core infantry units that way it can be more successfully used for sniping targeted units but right now it’s pretty much completely outclassed by the Banished scout options and core infantry.

  2. Hellbringer nerf - I’m probably not the only one that thinks that hellbringers might be too powerful for their cheap 80-40 cost. Although I do approve of their current stats they could bare to have their cost increased to something alone the lines of 90-40 or 90-45 to reflect their strengths.

  3. Anti Vehicle buff - While before Anti Vehicle strength completely locked down any vehicle builds now they haven’t been nearly as useful being the counter they used to be. Particularly the Hunters feel like they have become to squishy to really be relied upon effectively versus their counters

  4. Protector Sentinel/Retriever sentinels should gain inveteracy like every other unit.

  5. Retriever sentinel - should have it’s shield hit points reduced it’s incredibly strong mainly because it’s shields can take so many damage and the speed of which it moves. Frankly I enjoy this part of the Retriever differs it from the usual slow ultimate units but with the Shields being so high it often can make it nearly impossible for the defending player to really keep it away and to properly zone. In return it can have it’s hp buffed so that eventually it’ll have to back away and heal instead of just relying on shield recharges.

  6. Protector Sentinel - With the nerf to it’s “Y” ability making it nearly impossible to correctly target the right units the usefulness of the Protector sentinel has dropped dramatically and the increase in infantries damage to air has especially made it weak in the early game. Although when massed for it’s 3 supply cost the protector sentinel is way to powerful.
    I propose increasing it’s health by 10% (Since the health pool is so small a 10% might not be enough) 5% damage increase on the main laser (Also small compared to the two aggressive sentinels it gets as an upgrade) to help the Protector sentinel in the early game and 10% increase to the shields making it less fragile in engagements but making it’s supply cost 4 again from 3.

  7. Warthog/marauder nerf - If anti-vehicle is buffed it might not be necessary.

  8. Ultimate calldowns - Reduce cooldown but make it’s cooldown only start once the unit is destroyed so that once you kill it the opponent so you have an opening to press your advantage instead of having to deal with two.

There’s already a balance discussion thread. You’ve made some good points but forgot about the biggest balancing issues with Voridus. Not to mention Pavium and Serina might need a slight amount of tweaking and we might have some good game play.

Retriever does not need a nerf. It already does alot less damage compared to a condor and it requires 2 LP’S to get that shield.

> 2533274936603132;3:
> Retriever does not need a nerf. It already does alot less damage compared to a condor and it requires 2 LP’S to get that shield.

Actually it does less damage but overall it can be used to tank much more damage and is incredibly fast easily able to do hit and run attacks.

and to correct you it’s only 1LP for the Retriver and another if you want it to be shielded. Of course that other 1LP affects more than the Retriver it also gives the Kodiaks a second Aggressor sentinel and Protector Sentinels gain a shield as well. So it’s a little disingenuous to create a conclusion that the 2LP only benefit the Retriever sentinel.

> 2533274941559896;2:
> You’ve made some good points but forgot about the biggest balancing issues with Voridus

I didn’t talk about Voridus because I honestly don’t believe he’s that bad. But I also play on pc. His units are kind of glass cannons without the engineers 40% shield reduction so I find you can melt his army just as easily as you do his. Where he has to zone with his goo.

Serina on the other hand I feel like the slow effect should progressively hurt the speed of your units and not just immediately slow you to a crawl. Giving you more chance to try and spread or escape her entrapments. (Also help you cap power nodes.)

I don’t want to talk into to many different leaders If I don’t have any good ideas on how to effect them or understand the nuances of each character.

I feel like Anti-vehicle needs to be modified in a very specific way. The problem in the past wasn’t that they shut down T2 vehicles, necessarily. It was that they made T3 vehicles unplayable. Then, they got nerfed, but T2 got buffed and T3 stayed the same. There is no logical reason to build wraiths, scorpions, grizzlies, or colossi in this version of the game. They trade worse than their T2 counterparts and still lose to AV. AV needs to be buffed to trade effectively with T2 vehicles and needs to lose to T3 ones.

> 2533274924073601;5:
> I feel like Anti-vehicle needs to be modified in a very specific way. The problem in the past wasn’t that they shut down T2 vehicles, necessarily. It was that they made T3 vehicles unplayable. Then, they got nerfed, but T2 got buffed and T3 stayed the same. There is no logical reason to build wraiths, scorpions, grizzlies, or colossi in this version of the game. They trade worse than their T2 counterparts and still lose to AV. AV needs to be buffed to trade effectively with T2 vehicles and needs to lose to T3 ones.

Would it not more sense for AV to beat T2 vehicles and trade with T3 vehicles? When I says trade, I mean trade pop for pop, not unit for unit, by the way.

I mean, if T3 Vehicles beat AV… Forge and Iz would just roll over people, and I don’t think that’s very fair. Moreover, how would one beat T3 vehicles if it’s hard counter loses? Throw in some AA and that army is untouchable.

> 2533274845021192;1:
> 1. Jackrabbit buff - I’m talking to bring it more in line with other units or at least increasing it’s damage towards non-core infantry units that way it can be more successfully used for sniping targeted units but right now it’s pretty much completely outclassed by the Banished scout options and core infantry.

JR is not doing its job, which is hard countering rush units. People just get the grunt mine or marine grenade upgrade, and the rabbits countering the rush units now get countered all of a sudden by the core infantry, which allows the rush units to remain on the field. This forces the scout player to also add anti-infantry. That is a pretty close fight between those comps, but the infantry gets nodes, which in theory puts it ahead, seeing as scouts can’t really kill buildings to a relevant degree. If unattended, they can still do that, though.
All scouts should eat up anti-infantry really hard for them to be relevant. A 25-30% buff vs anti infantry and rush units would be great. At the same time, I do think that rabbits are good enough vs the other scouts - in my opinion, they are the best in scout v scout.

> 2533274845021192;1:
> 2. Hellbringer nerf - I’m probably not the only one that thinks that hellbringers might be too powerful for their cheap 80-40 cost. Although I do approve of their current stats they could bare to have their cost increased to something alone the lines of 90-40 or 90-45 to reflect their strengths.

I think this is a side effect of #1 purely. For Yapyap it would be quite important for Methane Wagons to do more gun damage vs anti-inf/rush units, just like the scouts. He needs an answer to these.

> 2533274845021192;1:
> 3. Anti Vehicle buff - While before Anti Vehicle strength completely locked down any vehicle builds now they haven’t been nearly as useful being the counter they used to be. Particularly the Hunters feel like they have become to squishy to really be relied upon effectively versus their counters

The T2 vehicles do too much damage to AV. A big part of this is also the fact that Thick hide just gives too big a health bonus. Maybe if Thick Hide is nerfed by another 10% and the AV guys take 20% less damage from T2 vehicles? It should incentivise using the correct units to counter them.

> 2533274845021192;1:
> 5. Retriever sentinel - should have it’s shield hit points reduced it’s incredibly strong mainly because it’s shields can take so many damage and the speed of which it moves. Frankly I enjoy this part of the Retriever differs it from the usual slow ultimate units but with the Shields being so high it often can make it nearly impossible for the defending player to really keep it away and to properly zone. In return it can have it’s hp buffed so that eventually it’ll have to back away and heal instead of just relying on shield recharges.

The Retriver is strong, but you should be planning for its presense around the 8 min mark. Having a few AA units can completely shut it down. I don’t think we have a balance problem here. If anything, the only reason it does so well is because Warthogs do well before it gets called in - and that has to do with AV weakness as you yourself pointed out above.

> 2533274845021192;1:
> 6. Protector Sentinel - With the nerf to it’s “Y” ability making it nearly impossible to correctly target the right units the usefulness of the Protector sentinel has dropped dramatically and the increase in infantries damage to air has especially made it weak in the early game. Although when massed for it’s 3 supply cost the protector sentinel is way to powerful.
> I propose increasing it’s health by 10% (Since the health pool is so small a 10% might not be enough) 5% damage increase on the main laser (Also small compared to the two aggressive sentinels it gets as an upgrade) to help the Protector sentinel in the early game and 10% increase to the shields making it less fragile in engagements but making it’s supply cost 4 again from 3.

I agree with the better stats for more pop proposal, but I think the current Y is stronger than the previous one ever was. The AoE is quite important. They’re nearly impossible to get out in a meaningful number early though like you said, and it really hurts to have to use some many passive leader points.

> 2533274845021192;1:
> 7. Warthog/marauder nerf - If anti-vehicle is buffed it might not be necessary.

As proposed above, I think it’d be nice if Thick Hide got another hit, and AV took less damage from the T2 vehicles.

> 2533274845021192;1:
> 8. Ultimate calldowns - Reduce cooldown but make it’s cooldown only start once the unit is destroyed so that once you kill it the opponent so you have an opening to press your advantage instead of having to deal with two.

Calldowns as a whole are extremely strong. It’d be nice if something like this can be done, but I think it’s simpler if the UNSC ones slowed instead of stunning, and they all had a longer cooldown, along with at least 25% extra cost compared to the original unit. Ignoring the train time and travel distance is a huge bonus, and I think that number I suggest may be too small.

To add a #9, I think cloak towers need to be addressed - every detector needs to go extremely close to spot it, which makes it too hard to attack into. Detection is only a problem in this case, due to the fact that the units look for the center of the cloaked thing(bases are big, units are tiny, so it’s not noticable with units).

Edit: #10: MakeGooPoo. Infusion tech buff actually made it overall better for the late game. This thing is nuts.
#11: Rain of Fire and Ultra Mines are too hard to avoid and do too much damage. 0.5 seconds extra to avoid them, and a 20% damage nerf would be completely reasonable.
#12: Pavium Hero still too good, should do slightly less damage.

Nakamura0114 -

Although I agree with most of your list, the one thing I have to take a hard “no” against is a 20% damage nerf to rain. That’s pretty substantial. I think that number is reasonable against level 3 rain, but certainly not a flat 20% nerf across the board. It’s really not that difficult to get units out of it before it piles up too much damage in the early game.

> 2533274812650916;8:
> Nakamura0114 -
>
> Although I agree with most of your list, the one thing I have to take a hard “no” against is a 20% damage nerf to rain. That’s pretty substantial. I think that number is reasonable against level 3 rain, but certainly not a flat 20% nerf across the board. It’s really not that difficult to get units out of it before it piles up too much damage in the early game.

Not hard to avoid it by itself, no - but pair it with the slowing from Pavium’s hero, grunt mines or god forbid Maelstrom in a team game, we get a very different scenario.

I’m in full agreement about his synergy with Maelstrom. That’s why I’m in favor with that drastic of a nerf at level 3. His hero unit’s slow definitely needs a nerf. It doesn’t feel like they nerfed the AoE at all.

I am not opposed to rain’s damage getting a nerf at every level. I just think 20% is too drastic at level 1. In terms of raw damage, I’m pretty sure Isabel’s MAC is the best nuke in the game right now at level 1.

> 2533274812650916;10:
> I’m in full agreement about his synergy with Maelstrom. That’s why I’m in favor with that drastic of a nerf at level 3. His hero unit’s slow definitely needs a nerf. It doesn’t feel like they nerfed the AoE at all.
>
> I am not opposed to rain’s damage getting a nerf at every level. I just think 20% is too drastic at level 1. In terms of raw damage, I’m pretty sure Isabel’s MAC is the best nuke in the game right now at level 1.

You’re right, the damage changes don’t need to be the same % at every level.

> 2533274958100139;7:
> > 2533274845021192;1:
> > 1. Jackrabbit buff - I’m talking to bring it more in line with other units or at least increasing it’s damage towards non-core infantry units that way it can be more successfully used for sniping targeted units but right now it’s pretty much completely outclassed by the Banished scout options and core infantry.
>
> JR is not doing its job, which is hard countering rush units. People just get the grunt mine or marine grenade upgrade, and the rabbits countering the rush units now get countered all of a sudden by the core infantry, which allows the rush units to remain on the field. This forces the scout player to also add anti-infantry. That is a pretty close fight between those comps, but the infantry gets nodes, which in theory puts it ahead, seeing as scouts can’t really kill buildings to a relevant degree. If unattended, they can still do that, though.
> All scouts should eat up anti-infantry really hard for them to be relevant. A 25-30% buff vs anti infantry and rush units would be great. At the same time, I do think that rabbits are good enough vs the other scouts - in my opinion, they are the best in scout v scout.
>
>
> > 2533274845021192;1:
> > 2. Hellbringer nerf - I’m probably not the only one that thinks that hellbringers might be too powerful for their cheap 80-40 cost. Although I do approve of their current stats they could bare to have their cost increased to something alone the lines of 90-40 or 90-45 to reflect their strengths.
>
> I think this is a side effect of #1 purely. For Yapyap it would be quite important for Methane Wagons to do more gun damage vs anti-inf/rush units, just like the scouts. He needs an answer to these.
>
>
> > 2533274845021192;1:
> > 3. Anti Vehicle buff - While before Anti Vehicle strength completely locked down any vehicle builds now they haven’t been nearly as useful being the counter they used to be. Particularly the Hunters feel like they have become to squishy to really be relied upon effectively versus their counters
>
> The T2 vehicles do too much damage to AV. A big part of this is also the fact that Thick hide just gives too big a health bonus. Maybe if Thick Hide is nerfed by another 10% and the AV guys take 20% less damage from T2 vehicles? It should incentivise using the correct units to counter them.
>
>
> > 2533274845021192;1:
> > 5. Retriever sentinel - should have it’s shield hit points reduced it’s incredibly strong mainly because it’s shields can take so many damage and the speed of which it moves. Frankly I enjoy this part of the Retriever differs it from the usual slow ultimate units but with the Shields being so high it often can make it nearly impossible for the defending player to really keep it away and to properly zone. In return it can have it’s hp buffed so that eventually it’ll have to back away and heal instead of just relying on shield recharges.
>
> The Retriver is strong, but you should be planning for its presense around the 8 min mark. Having a few AA units can completely shut it down. I don’t think we have a balance problem here. If anything, the only reason it does so well is because Warthogs do well before it gets called in - and that has to do with AV weakness as you yourself pointed out above.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274845021192;1:
> > 6. Protector Sentinel - With the nerf to it’s “Y” ability making it nearly impossible to correctly target the right units the usefulness of the Protector sentinel has dropped dramatically and the increase in infantries damage to air has especially made it weak in the early game. Although when massed for it’s 3 supply cost the protector sentinel is way to powerful.
> > I propose increasing it’s health by 10% (Since the health pool is so small a 10% might not be enough) 5% damage increase on the main laser (Also small compared to the two aggressive sentinels it gets as an upgrade) to help the Protector sentinel in the early game and 10% increase to the shields making it less fragile in engagements but making it’s supply cost 4 again from 3.
>
> I agree with the better stats for more pop proposal, but I think the current Y is stronger than the previous one ever was. The AoE is quite important. They’re nearly impossible to get out in a meaningful number early though like you said, and it really hurts to have to use some many passive leader points.
>
>
> > 2533274845021192;1:
> > 7. Warthog/marauder nerf - If anti-vehicle is buffed it might not be necessary.
>
> As proposed above, I think it’d be nice if Thick Hide got another hit, and AV took less damage from the T2 vehicles.
>
>
> > 2533274845021192;1:
> > 8. Ultimate calldowns - Reduce cooldown but make it’s cooldown only start once the unit is destroyed so that once you kill it the opponent so you have an opening to press your advantage instead of having to deal with two.
>
> Calldowns as a whole are extremely strong. It’d be nice if something like this can be done, but I think it’s simpler if the UNSC ones slowed instead of stunning, and they all had a longer cooldown, along with at least 25% extra cost compared to the original unit. Ignoring the train time and travel distance is a huge bonus, and I think that number I suggest may be too small.
>
> To add a #9, I think cloak towers need to be addressed - every detector needs to go extremely close to spot it, which makes it too hard to attack into. Detection is only a problem in this case, due to the fact that the units look for the center of the cloaked thing(bases are big, units are tiny, so it’s not noticable with units).
>
> Edit: #10: MakeGooPoo. Infusion tech buff actually made it overall better for the late game. This thing is nuts.
> #11: Rain of Fire and Ultra Mines are too hard to avoid and do too much damage. 0.5 seconds extra to avoid them, and a 20% damage nerf would be completely reasonable.
> #12: Pavium Hero still too good, should do slightly less damage.

This is exactly exactly how I feel, very well written, thanks man! I have to add that they didn’t nerf Voridus enough across the board by a long shot as well!

#googone #diarrheagone

> 2533274958100139;7:
> Calldowns as a whole are extremely strong. It’d be nice if something like this can be done, but I think it’s simpler if the UNSC ones slowed instead of stunning, and they all had a longer cooldown, along with at least 25% extra cost compared to the original unit. Ignoring the train time and travel distance is a huge bonus, and I think that number I suggest may be too small.
>
> To add a #9, I think cloak towers need to be addressed - every detector needs to go extremely close to spot it, which makes it too hard to attack into. Detection is only a problem in this case, due to the fact that the units look for the center of the cloaked thing(bases are big, units are tiny, so it’s not noticable with units).
>
> Edit: #10: MakeGooPoo. Infusion tech buff actually made it overall better for the late game. This thing is nuts.
> #11: Rain of Fire and Ultra Mines are too hard to avoid and do too much damage. 0.5 seconds extra to avoid them, and a 20% damage nerf would be completely reasonable.
> #12: Pavium Hero still too good, should do slightly less damage.

I agree with calldowns. Leaders with a lot really can wipe the floor with their opponents army and buff your own. It feels a little unfair.

Also agree with your #9 fact that I need to have my detector touching the base really is unreasonable for how fragile detectors are.

#11 I agree with the extra start up time but not so much the damage nerf, though I do think that rain of fire should have it’s damage nerfed towards buildings.

#10 and #12 I haven’t used/played against enough to make any informed judgement although wouldn’t be surprised that Pavium is still too strong.

For now i’ll Rescind my Retriever Proposal but for the Protector senitnel I haven’t noticed an aoe for the stun and either or since the Protector sentinels only seem to hit units directly infront of the targeted unit you have to have them ontop of an army to make use of the stun properly. Infact since you can’t target uniits precisely it’s made weak much weaker.