Bad game design in Warzone

Games Halo 5: Guardians
#1

I know this topic has been beaten down almost as much as IGN is for their CoD reviews, but I still need to address the issues I have with boss stealing. According to 343, this is completely intentional. The entire point of bosses are, of course, to provide a significant increase to your points’ bar in the hopes that you’ll win the match. I have no problem with this system; as a matter of fact, I think that AI bosses, both big (150 points) and small (25 points) really add to the scale and variety of Warzone. It’s a neat idea.

However, there is a questionable contradiction in what 343 is trying to accomplish. From what they’ve told us, Warzone isn’t supposed to be competitive—not in the least. We have Arena for that. Warzone is a casual, chaotic, and fun game-mode where you simply hop on to relax and have a good time. There shouldn’t be a worriment for losing, as there is nothing to lose.

Tell me, 343, if you put so much of an emphasis on casual fun, why do you also insist that Warzone is a team-oriented game? Kevin Franklin from Twitter has stated that, if you don’t organize a team to take down a boss, its points being stolen from you should be seen coming. Here’s the contradiction: when you think “team-oriented” and “organized play”, you don’t think casual fun, you assume that I’d be discussing Arena, as that is team-focused. Just watch any pros’ gameplay and you’ll know what I mean.

Why try to make Warzone competitive in the teamwork sense when you have stated, multiple times, that it isn’t supposed to be like that? This isn’t good game design, from what I observe, it’s just counter-intuitive. This is even worse with the fact that Warzone is JIP; how would you organize a team when, not only is everyone there just trying to have a good time, but randoms would be joining you mid-match? With the intention of “boss stealing”, unless you have some hyper-organized team—which, 99% of the time, you won’t have—there’s hardly a real incentive to go after bosses. I prefer to summon Whiplash to take out players rather than Arclight for the legendary boss.

As goes proper criticism, I do have a solution, Don’t give me credit for it as it isn’t my idea; I just remember that someone thought up of this solution for boss stealing, here on Waypoint, and it really is a brilliant thing to add.

Give bosses two health bars: one blue and one red, with each team dealing damage to their respective bars. Will this make Warzone more chaotic? Yes, but so what? It’s supposed to be a chaotic and casual experience; that was the entire point: to create a game-mode that people can play casually on, not to produce some bigger-scale version of Arena.

Please don’t mistaken me, I really like Warzone, it’s my go-to mode in Halo 5, which is my third favorite game of the franchise. What I’m implying as that their intention contradicts their other goal: both to have organized teams play and simply have a fun and social mode.

#2

To be fair here while I don’t support the boss system in the slightly thinking about it this is always how halos combat system worked last shot between your teammate and you is the one that gets the kill not both the other gets the assist.

#3

I go into war zone with the intention of stealing boss kills… I love it! Top reason why I play war zone. :slight_smile:

#4

One of my favorite steals was when a player was about to get an elite general kill with his fuel rod he was maybe one or two shots away. I sniped him then the elite and got the boss kill… I was ecstatic :slight_smile:

#5

Exactly. Warzone does not need “team orientation” because chances are you aren’t going to find it. Although I’d prefer they just remove the health bar rather than add 2 health bars. Makes more sense that way. Then everyone camping with their Whiplash will have to take a good guess to pull in a winning kill

#6

Regardless of whether a game mode is “Casual” or “Competitive” does not take away from a Winner/Loser scenario.
Therefore, if you have a coordinated team in Warzone, they will win and be able to have a competitive match of Warzone. I disagree with your comment at a fundamental level. Regardless of Social or not, there is always competition in a FPS setting. The only truly “Casual” game mode would be co-op where everyone is a winner because it’s against a computer.

Example: Grifball or Rumble Rockets are very Social type game modes. When I play those, I have a blast! But am I still trying to win… absolutely. Does this now make it “Competitive” instead? Of course, but it is a different type of competition. Warzone, I believe, achieves this as well. I want my team to win, but it is definitely more casual than Arena. Do I hate boss stealing? YES. Do I wish they could change that… YES, but it is because of how frustrating it is when it happens. The flip side of that coin is how AWESOME it is when you Steal a boss kill… or go on a rampage when you call in a 8 REQ point card vs. calling that card in and spawn dying almost immediately. Warzone is Risk/Reward gameplay instead of pure Arena competition.

In a game where you always have a Winner and a Loser, you will always have competition. Regardless of how “Social” of a setting you are in.

#7

> 2533274798445563;6:
> Regardless of whether a game mode is “Casual” or “Competitive” does not take away from a Winner/Loser scenario.
> Therefore, if you have a coordinated team in Warzone, they will win and be able to have a competitive match of Warzone. I disagree with your comment at a fundamental level. Regardless of Social or not, there is always competition in a FPS setting. The only truly “Casual” game mode would be co-op where everyone is a winner because it’s against a computer.
>
> Example: Grifball or Rumble Rockets are very Social type game modes. When I play those, I have a blast! But am I still trying to win… absolutely. Does this now make it “Competitive” instead? Of course, but it is a different type of competition. Warzone, I believe, achieves this as well. I want my team to win, but it is definitely more casual than Arena. Do I hate boss stealing? YES. Do I wish they could change that… YES, but it is because of how frustrating it is when it happens. The flip side of that coin is how AWESOME it is when you Steal a boss kill… or go on a rampage when you call in a 8 REQ point card vs. calling that card in and spawn dying almost immediately. Warzone is Risk/Reward gameplay instead of pure Arena competition.
>
> In a game where you always have a Winner and a Loser, you will always have competition. Regardless of how “Social” of a setting you are in.

You’re missing the point. Yes, no matter how casual you try to make something, at the end of the day, both teams’ goal is to try and win, be it either getting the most kills, capturing the flag, securing the strongholds, et cetera. To me, however, a casual game-mode is one where you don’t care whether you win or lose; you just play to have a good time, but regardless of that, it needs to be balanced. By getting rid of the possibility for boss stealing, it makes things fairer and, arguably, more casual.

#8

I can see competing over the boss and attempting to secure the area by keeping enemy team on respawn… that part makes sense… However when 8/12 players on my team are shredding warden eternal with power weapons and he is at 5% health… kind of lame when 1 enemy player can somehow luckily get the kill with a br shot cross map. Not sure how our team can prevent that.

That being said I love stealing bosses… As many others have said the system seems like a dice roll, but you can sway it in your favor to a small degree.

#9

> 2535405450804460;2:
> To be fair here while I don’t support the boss system in the slightly thinking about it this is always how halos combat system worked last shot between your teammate and you is the one that gets the kill not both the other gets the assist.

except that is among teammates. it doesn’t matter whether you or your teammate gets the kill because the point still counts towards YOUR team. Boss stealing is completely different and is a flawed comparison. in warzone your team and the enemy team are fighting over the boss.

#10

> 2533274895603860;7:
> > 2533274798445563;6:
> > Regardless of whether a game mode is “Casual” or “Competitive” does not take away from a Winner/Loser scenario.
> > Therefore, if you have a coordinated team in Warzone, they will win and be able to have a competitive match of Warzone. I disagree with your comment at a fundamental level. Regardless of Social or not, there is always competition in a FPS setting. The only truly “Casual” game mode would be co-op where everyone is a winner because it’s against a computer.
> >
> > Example: Grifball or Rumble Rockets are very Social type game modes. When I play those, I have a blast! But am I still trying to win… absolutely. Does this now make it “Competitive” instead? Of course, but it is a different type of competition. Warzone, I believe, achieves this as well. I want my team to win, but it is definitely more casual than Arena. Do I hate boss stealing? YES. Do I wish they could change that… YES, but it is because of how frustrating it is when it happens. The flip side of that coin is how AWESOME it is when you Steal a boss kill… or go on a rampage when you call in a 8 REQ point card vs. calling that card in and spawn dying almost immediately. Warzone is Risk/Reward gameplay instead of pure Arena competition.
> >
> > In a game where you always have a Winner and a Loser, you will always have competition. Regardless of how “Social” of a setting you are in.
>
>
> You’re missing the point. Yes, no matter how casual you try to make something, at the end of the day, both teams’ goal is to try and win, be it either getting the most kills, capturing the flag, securing the strongholds, et cetera. To me, however, a casual game-mode is one where you don’t care whether you win or lose; you just play to have a good time, but regardless of that, it needs to be balanced. By getting rid of the possibility for boss stealing, it makes things fairer and, arguably, more casual.

Removing boss stealing would definitely take away a lot of stress from an otherwise stress free gametype. I agree with your point there. As I said in my post, I also hate boss stealing, but as others have said, it can be pretty great when you get the steal. But, I think it’s more infuriating when your kill gets taken. I understand the choice by 343 to have it the way it is… but I think they should try for like a week, to have it a different way, like point splitting based on damage dealt by team or your idea of two meters and see how the community reacts to the changes. If it is in fact more fun… then they just change it. If it’s worse, then we go back to the original design and move on!

#11

> 2533274798445563;10:
> > 2533274895603860;7:
> > > 2533274798445563;6:
> > > Regardless of whether a game mode is “Casual” or “Competitive” does not take away from a Winner/Loser scenario.
> > > Therefore, if you have a coordinated team in Warzone, they will win and be able to have a competitive match of Warzone. I disagree with your comment at a fundamental level. Regardless of Social or not, there is always competition in a FPS setting. The only truly “Casual” game mode would be co-op where everyone is a winner because it’s against a computer.
> > >
> > > Example: Grifball or Rumble Rockets are very Social type game modes. When I play those, I have a blast! But am I still trying to win… absolutely. Does this now make it “Competitive” instead? Of course, but it is a different type of competition. Warzone, I believe, achieves this as well. I want my team to win, but it is definitely more casual than Arena. Do I hate boss stealing? YES. Do I wish they could change that… YES, but it is because of how frustrating it is when it happens. The flip side of that coin is how AWESOME it is when you Steal a boss kill… or go on a rampage when you call in a 8 REQ point card vs. calling that card in and spawn dying almost immediately. Warzone is Risk/Reward gameplay instead of pure Arena competition.
> > >
> > > In a game where you always have a Winner and a Loser, you will always have competition. Regardless of how “Social” of a setting you are in.
> >
> >
> > You’re missing the point. Yes, no matter how casual you try to make something, at the end of the day, both teams’ goal is to try and win, be it either getting the most kills, capturing the flag, securing the strongholds, et cetera. To me, however, a casual game-mode is one where you don’t care whether you win or lose; you just play to have a good time, but regardless of that, it needs to be balanced. By getting rid of the possibility for boss stealing, it makes things fairer and, arguably, more casual.
>
>
> Removing boss stealing would definitely take away a lot of stress from an otherwise stress free gametype. I agree with your point there. As I said in my post, I also hate boss stealing, but as others have said, it can be pretty great when you get the steal. But, I think it’s more infuriating when your kill gets taken. I understand the choice by 343 to have it the way it is… but I think they should try for like a week, to have it a different way, like point splitting based on damage dealt by team or your idea of two meters and see how the community reacts to the changes. If it is in fact more fun… then they just change it. If it’s worse, then we go back to the original design and move on!

Sounds like a plan.

#12

> 2535405450804460;2:
> To be fair here while I don’t support the boss system in the slightly thinking about it this is always how halos combat system worked last shot between your teammate and you is the one that gets the kill not both the other gets the assist.

maybe so, but that point goes to your team which is leading to the same goal.

in competitive it doesn’t matter WHO got the kill, just that your TEAM got the kill.

the idea of one team stealing a kill from another becomes more of a FFA/multiteam style of game design. the reason why it works for those is simple, 1 kill = 1 point. sitting back and stealing someone’s kill can earn you 1 point, but you are at risk at almost all times of giving another player/team 1 point, giving you incentive to keep moving or be more aggressive at times and you will more often then not be the initiator of a conflict. there is a reward for both approaches for getting that 1 point but the more risky approach is more then often the one that gets the point more often(being the aggressor instead of sitting back).

now in warzone something like a boss Isn’t worth 1 point, its worth 10, 20, w/e. there is now much more risk in dieing, something that stops you from getting those points you need. if you die you not only give you opponent that 1 point, but it helps them secure the much higher value target. solution? wait.

the way the system is for warzone bosses rewards a player for doing almost nothing other then spam a AR when the boss is about to die. he didnt have to spend REQ points to widdle down the boss’s health, he didn’t have to risk dieing by putting himself in the open, and he didn’t have to keep on moving to avoid conflict. He gave no risks and reaped the rewards.

risk VS reward, warzone boss’s result in only one for either team which is just bad game design.