I didnt have a problem with the AR at all…I actually felt that it was quite useful this time around because it wasn’t complete trash like it was in previous versions of the game. If it needs to be nerfed…it only needs to be nerfed SLIGHTLY…Maybe increase the efficiency of the BR ever so slightly to make it more enticing to pick up but I think for the most part they want to not have people only want to pick up the BR which is nice. There is more incentive to pick up other weapons. In the tech preview, as much as I love the pistol…I found myself replacing it for the commando because of the slightly increased power in combo with the AR.
The AR’s (close range) TTK is equal to the sidekick and longer then the Commando. I think it’s in a fine space and nerfing it would only make it the “press switch weapon after respawn” weapon it was in most games.
The “ADS” really doesn’t offer a benefit beyond adding zoom. It retains it’s normal stats otherwise, which means during a zoom, you can see a bit better but you also have to account for “scalar” inaccuracy due to the range relative to the “lack of precision”. The sidekick has the same issue, you get no red-reticle buff, no accuracy increase, just a zoom that “good” aimers can take advantage of. I would be curious how adding a “descope” would work for weapons that don’t descope in terms of gameplay (obviously it would just descope, but would it actually matter).
If anything I think the AR is in a good place. The maps we used it on vs the Commando and BR (the first being the one that needs work, it’s actually a pretty bad weapon when compared to the AR and BR). The BR now feels weaker because it can’t dominate like it did in many Halo games, Halo 2 and 3 showed that having “uncompetitive” weapons in the “shorter range” made the BR way too powerful. Without it you really couldn’t win matches even if you had power-weapons, the BR was overall the weapon everyone needed to have. Now that the BR (which is a Halo 3 version in Infinite in terms of performance) is forced to be a mid-range weapon, it struggles in these close range maps were you won’t win if you want to run and gun, you have to keep distance, in Halo 3 you could out perform an AR/SMG with proper dodging and distance control despite being within their effective ranges. Now you can be out gunned in “long-end” short range by an AR. The Sidekick is even better at those ranges, but the other issue I find is the TTK for the BR is lower than the AR, Commando and Sidekick which further makes it have issues. Giving it a slight fire-rate between burst increase could make it feel more competitive.
The descope of the precision weapons definitely feels bad only because the maps actually prevent them from being “power-houses”, Halo Infinite isn’t the other Halo games. We will need to adapt to the weaknesses of these weapons, no longer will we see BRs running and gunning against the AR and pistol. It will have it’s role. I would say this really makes me think Halo Infinite will have a great “skill gap” overtime. When I got the BR I was sidelined by how weak it felt compared to the Sidekick in most gun fights, until I started using it in the mid-range, which wasn’t as often as I am use to (being a BTB player almost exclusively).
To descope the AR/Sidekick wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing but to be fair the weapons aren’t really effective at the ranges you’d use the scope ADS for, it’s more of a “I won’t let you get away” attempt as far as my personal use has been.
EDIT: The Commando needs reworking, I think for one, it needs less recoil. They could either slow its fire rate (Thus effectively reducing recoil build up) or literally lower it a % amount that won’t make it too powerful but improve it. It’s the worst precision weapon in this game we have used. Scoping it feels pointless because as soon as you shoot it, you lose your sight picture to the point you could just use it normally to keep a better sight picture of your target.
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> > Please don’t nerf AR every time! Just keep the AR settings in Tech Preview, we noobs need efficient automatic weapon to fight. Don’t make Halo primary for headshot only again, that sxcks.
>
> I understand the concern, and it’s not about making it weak like in many of the other games, it’s about separating the weapons roles in the sandbox.
> I recommend reading the 3rd column in in the OP.
We need diversity also, one range one standard weapon isn’t a good design. Do you remember H5 eSport matches, everyone is magnum almost from start to end, boring for me.
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> > 2533274947805189;19:
> > > 2533274791734613;18:
> > > Please don’t nerf AR every time! Just keep the AR settings in Tech Preview, we noobs need efficient automatic weapon to fight. Don’t make Halo primary for headshot only again, that sxcks.
> >
> > I understand the concern, and it’s not about making it weak like in many of the other games, it’s about separating the weapons roles in the sandbox.
> > I recommend reading the 3rd column in in the OP.
>
> We need diversity also, one range one standard weapon isn’t a good design. Do you remember H5 eSport matches, everyone is magnum almost from start to end, boring for me.
Exactly, that is what I fear the AR will be this time around, giving the weapons clear roles in which they operate best will encourage usage of different weapons in different situations instead of just using one that is better than the other weapons in most situations.
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>
The ability to see better and also slow down the reticle with ADS makes a big difference in my opinion, I got kills a lot quicker using ADS than not. And I don’t want the AR to become too weak either, so I suspect that the removal of ADS would be enough actually for me. It would just make the weapon a little harder to get kills with in long ranges, but not make it weak like in most other games.
I disagree about the commando being bad, it has a faster ttk than the AR at the AR’s optimal range, and a faster ttk than the BR at the BR’s optimal range, if this gun is easy to use it’ll just stomp on both those guns, it took some practice but I think if a weapon is more powerful it should be harder to use, it’s already boarding op on pc from what I hear, if it becomes any easier to use I’d say they need to decrease the damage for it to even it out. It’s a complicated gun to ad to the sandbox imo, hard to get it right in balance.
I think the BR and AR should be about equals at mid range, but in Infinite I’d say they are equal at a rather longer range than that atm, would you agree or disagree with that?
I understand if it’s not the easiest thing to remember if you didn’t think about it during the flight. And I suppose “mid range” could also be a matter of definition, so I might not be asking the easiest question in the world lol.
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> EDIT: The Commando needs reworking, I think for one, it needs less recoil. They could either slow its fire rate (Thus effectively reducing recoil build up) or literally lower it a % amount that won’t make it too powerful but improve it. It’s the worst precision weapon in this game we have used. Scoping it feels pointless because as soon as you shoot it, you lose your sight picture to the point you could just use it normally to keep a better sight picture of your target.
While this thread is about the AR (which I agree with your stance on it) I strongly agree that the commando needs some reworking. Whether its less recoil or lower fire rate it was so disappointing to use, especially after my initial excitement during the gameplay reveal trailer for infinite.
Get rid of the headshot multiplier, and reduce it’s range about 15%
<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not bump.</mark>
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
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> > > 2533274791734613;18:
> > > Please don’t nerf AR every time! Just keep the AR settings in Tech Preview, we noobs need efficient automatic weapon to fight. Don’t make Halo primary for headshot only again, that sxcks.
> >
> > I understand the concern, and it’s not about making it weak like in many of the other games, it’s about separating the weapons roles in the sandbox.
> > I recommend reading the 3rd column in in the OP.
>
> We need diversity also, one range one standard weapon isn’t a good design. Do you remember H5 eSport matches, everyone is magnum almost from start to end, boring for me.
Would’ve been fine with BR and AR starts. (kept the AR how it was before nerf) Precision and auto users would have been happy. But nah.
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> > 2533274791734613;24:
> > > 2533274947805189;19:
> > > > 2533274791734613;18:
> > > > Please don’t nerf AR every time! Just keep the AR settings in Tech Preview, we noobs need efficient automatic weapon to fight. Don’t make Halo primary for headshot only again, that sxcks.
> > >
> > > I understand the concern, and it’s not about making it weak like in many of the other games, it’s about separating the weapons roles in the sandbox.
> > > I recommend reading the 3rd column in in the OP.
> >
> > We need diversity also, one range one standard weapon isn’t a good design. Do you remember H5 eSport matches, everyone is magnum almost from start to end, boring for me.
>
> Exactly, that is what I fear the AR will be this time around, giving the weapons clear roles in which they operate best will encourage usage of different weapons in different situations instead of just using one that is better than the other weapons in most situations.
>
>
>
>
> > 2535433538248845;23:
> >
>
> The ability to see better and also slow down the reticle with ADS makes a big difference in my opinion, I got kills a lot quicker using ADS than not. And I don’t want the AR to become too weak either, so I suspect that the removal of ADS would be enough actually for me. It would just make the weapon a little harder to get kills with in long ranges, but not make it weak like in most other games.
>
> I disagree about the commando being bad, it has a faster ttk than the AR at the AR’s optimal range, and a faster ttk than the BR at the BR’s optimal range, if this gun is easy to use it’ll just stomp on both those guns, it took some practice but I think if a weapon is more powerful it should be harder to use, it’s already boarding op on pc from what I hear, if it becomes any easier to use I’d say they need to decrease the damage for it to even it out. It’s a complicated gun to ad to the sandbox imo, hard to get it right in balance.
>
> I think the BR and AR should be about equals at mid range, but in Infinite I’d say they are equal at a rather longer range than that atm, would you agree or disagree with that?
> I understand if it’s not the easiest thing to remember if you didn’t think about it during the flight. And I suppose “mid range” could also be a matter of definition, so I might not be asking the easiest question in the world lol.
The problem I see with the BR is that it currently hasn’t been used in situations it will be good at, which make the AR seem more effective, I also agree the ADS can help, I made a point that it offers no stat buffs. Also having had played on PC, I find the Commando is actually pretty terrible in most situations, it has a place between ranges where the AR/BR would be most effective. And by mid-range I find in video games we assume 50 feet is mid-range, but it isn’t, mid-range is something like Live Fire’s Power-Up spawn to the slope beyond the brute targets. You aren’t going to reasonably kill someone with an AR that far away. Close range, is essentially is somewhere near the brutes from the power-up spawn. Huge difference in distance were the AR and BR would make a difference.
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> Get rid of the headshot multiplier, and reduce it’s range about 15%
This probably would honestly work well for all non-precision weapons. The headshot multiplier doesn’t make sense for such a weapon, because it makes it overly powerful in situations it should be less viable in.
Seeing as how the weapon sandbox balance is an issue many people are starting to notice, I feel like I should make yet another post about it here.
The Halo Infinite weapon sandbox has a very big, yet difficult to describe problem relating to TTK and effective weapon range, that throws the whole feeling of the game just a little bit off compared to other Halo games, and is what makes the game feel not quite right.
Before I get started, I should clarify that when I say “effective range”, I’m not talking about standing 30 feet from a static bot in the weapon drills range. I’m talking about use in actual gameplay, aiming errors, variable ranges, aim assist, bullet magnetism, and even hit detection issues, throughout a match. Real world performance in the hands of average players.
Everything has enough reach to feel like you don’t truly need to choose the right weapon for the right range on small maps. That leads to less importance of " the right tools for the right job" when playing on small maps, and close quarters/melee combat getting nerfed because maps are more open and medium to long range weapon friendly. It’s not as bad as in Halo 5, but that particular scent of Halo 5 still lingers. And I’m not trying to say Bungie had it right either. They screwed up HARD by making the CE Magnum, BR and DMR so dominant, and I still don’t forgive them for it.
Bungie games felt repetitive online and on higher difficulties because they railroad you into each game’s utility weapon, carbine, rockets, sniper, and laser when going against vehicles. The rest of the standard weapons almost might as well not exist at higher than average play. But Infinite’s critical flaw lies in the fact that you don’t have to think as hard about what weapon you should be use when wandering most parts of maps. What I’m saying, is that weapon weaknesses aren’t as apparent in smaller maps in Infinite, because nearly all of them are all too precise.
Think about it like this:
Imagine Halo 3. Take the AR, and make it kill with a few less bullets, tighten the accuracy, and give it double damage on headshots, but don’t change anything else in the game. It’s now an instant BR competitor in Halo 3. You no longer have to choose whether you want to use the BR or AR in SMALLER maps because they both do well at most of the ranges present on those maps. The bigger maps? Yeah, you still use the BR most of the time for sure because it’s still more accurate and has a scope. But on Guardian? Forget it. Guardian just isn’t big enough of a map to make the BR shine above this buffed AR in most places around the map. Thinking about the playstyle you want to employ when using both weapons isn’t very important now (Because the AR has been buffed, remember?). AR or BR, you’ll do about equally well on SMALL maps. The weapon sandbox becomes less situational on that SMALL map. You wouldn’t have to worry as much about altering your playstyle with each weapon on SMALL maps, because they all do well in most places.
When every weapon is strong competitor to the utility weapon crown on SMALL maps, none of the weapons’ individual qualities shine out as well, maps are made more open toe help with this, and close range/melee combat suffers a bit as well.
Now onto something more meaty and digestible:
People aren’t too happy with the Plasma Pistol’s performance right now. Notice how the Plasma Pistol overcharge in Infinite can lock onto targets much further away, but now the tracking is very weak? That defining tracking feature was nerfed in favor of range, because even the SMALL maps are based around medium and long range combat. For the Plasma Pistol to compete in these larger and more open maps with the other accurate weapons, the targeting range had to be increased, but the tracking was reduced to keep it from being overpowered. The open map design forced this weapon to become longer ranged, but less reliable.
Just about everybody likes the Needler to some extent. Why do people keep praising this weapon in the Infinite flight? Because its close to medium range niche was not changed too drastically. Tracking is still good relative to player movement speed, it’s not any better up close, the needles can still be avoided, but the tracking range was slightly increased to help it compete in the “new medium range” that 343 introduced in 5. Notice how it still fills a specific role, and is still reliable?
The Plasma Pistol is not as reliable of a sidearm as it was in the past and doesn’t stand out as much, and the Needler still stands tall as a close to midrange monster to targets in the open. The Needler encourages a certain familiar playstyle when using it, the Plasma Pistol is simply less reliable overall. You can’t just buff the Plasma Pistol’s overcharged shot tracking, and keep its ability to lock on over longer distances, because then you’ll get an overpowered weapon combo like the Noob Combo in CE and 2. And you can’t reduce the lock on range of the Plasma Pistol and increase the tracking instead, because then it becomes less useful in the weapon sandbox that favors longer ranges.
This is the first clear cut sign that many effective weapon ranges are to long, and need very SMALL nerfs to accuracy, damage, and rate of fire to help the weapons fit in better on SMALLER maps. Balancing the maps and weapon sandbox to promote midrange utility weapons is a massive mistake, Smaller maps don’t show weapon weaknesses as well, and then the dynamic feeling of the weapon sandbox is diminished. Close quarters combat suffers on all maps due to the increased emphasis on medium and long range combat. Large and drastic changes aren’t needed. Some weapons just need to take fractions of a second longer to kill at longer ranges. Either by reduced fire rate, accuracy, or damage. The changes needed depend on the weapon and the specific role it’s trying to fill.
One more thing…
TTK. Time to kill. Halo 3 had slightly longer real world TTK due to hit detection issues, deduced weapon accuracy, and longer bullet travel time. Halo infinite TTK appears about the same as Halo 3 when playing against stationary targets, but in actual gameplay against targets that are actively trying to evade your shots, that’s far from the case. The massive success of addictive gameplay in Halo 3 does not tell lies, and, along with reduced weapon ranges overall, a slightly longer real world TTK played a role in that. Player engagement goes up when you really have to commit yourself to a kill. Due to better netcode, faster bullet travel times, and more accurate weapons, Halo Infinite’s TTK in the real world is significantly lower than Halo 3’s. Take that into consideration when thinking about what changes that could be made to reduce the effective weapon ranges. Some changes would affect close range TTK as well, and that can sometimes be the point.
The changes needed would be subtle and a bit arduous to fine tune, but would fix many of the issues people currently have with the Infinite flight. Remember how some people say Bazaar is good, but also boring? What if weapons and kill times were changed to increase player engagement?
Edit: Fixed a brainfart sentence.
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> > > At first I though that not very many were too bothered about this, but I’ve learned that there are quite a few people who agree with this, so I though I’d make a thread for it and see where it goes.
> > > I appreciate those who read it all to get a better picture of what I’m saying, but it’s your choice.
> > >
> > > The AR in infinite has a very long effective range, with the ADS which can not be de-scoped it really creates an issue in my opinion. We can get peppered by this from the other side of the map now, and shooting back does not affect the accuracy of the opponent.
> > > I can’t help but feel that the AR, BR and Commando are kinda wrestling in a bit of a sandbox role identity-crisis.
> > >
> > > I wanna be clear, I love that the AR is now a better “killing machine”, this was a good move, I just don’t think it should be this from so far away to encourage usage of other non-power-weapons to compliment the flaws of the weapons you spawn with. I feel now I pick up certain weapons mostly because I want variation, not so much to be able to do something I can’t with the AR.
> > > The way I interpret the role of the AR compared to the BR is, AR should have the advantage at close-mid range, BR should have the advantage at mid-long, where as now I feel like AR is very dominant and easy to use. The BR has perhaps been a bit too dominant in past games, I’m glad they tried to change that, but now I just think it’s the opposite.
> > >
> > > Solution:
> > > Well I really don’t know what would be best, but my gut tells me that removing ADS completely from the game would solve this problem, I would just be sooo pleased to not have ADS. Since that’s very unlikely maybe at least make us de-scope when we are shot or just reduce effective range.
> > >
> > > Feel free to disagree that there is a balancing issue here. Also feel free to enjoy that the AR is dominant, I’m not trying to criticise your taste.
> > >
> > > But most of all I’d like to hear different suggestion how you would improve the AR if you could. Any ideas? Or is it perfect?
> >
> > I’m glad the AR is the sort of powerhouse weapon it is right now. I’m a little tired of always having to have played precision weapon ranged based combat for basically at least the last ten years. I get more enjoyment from getting in people’s face, peppering them, then trying to land the melee kill without getting killed myself- that’s harder to do. But that’s where we start having problems. The AR currently in Infinite can be used at a fairly good range. I could be mistaken, but when playing the flight I could have sworn that (at least with the sidekick) when ADS the red reticle range was slightly extended. I think that ADS should be scrapped from the game- most certainly with the AR. I’m fine with it being a deadlier weapon but the range where it is useful needs to be fairly close. If you want to try and target someone further out you need to peck at them, not just be able to press a button to zoom right in and better adjust your aim.
>
> Yeah I agree with all of this, even though I’m more of a precision person myself, I don’t think it’s ideal that the BR was more or less equal to the AR up-close in other games, it kinda made the AR pointless. They are probably more balanced in Infinite than they have been in many other games but it’s still kinda turned the other way around. Yeah I could also have sworn that the ADS had a big impact.
The Battle Rife in Halo 3 just needed a fire rate nerf (The same goes for the Covenant Carbine). This way, its accuracy would outperform the Assault Rifle at range, but up close, the Assault Rifle would still be better. The forced slower fire rate would force you to be worse up close, regardless of your aim. This view will cause some people to scream out in agony, but the fact of the matter is that the BR was Halo 3’s biggest issue due to its dominance over all other non-powerweapons at all ranges. The DMR in Reach is the same way.
A similar approach to this is very needed throughout much of the Infinite weapon sandbox.
From what I remember the problem wasn’t ADS specifically because ADS gave the AR a lot more spread. The problem is that the AR is just too accurate in mid range fights while hip firing. I think they need to slightly nerf the range. The AR was outperforming the pistol in mid range fights a lot of the time. Too much of the time. Also a side note, needler needs a nerf too, more so than the AR.
I love how the MA40 AR had a bit of a buff to it, was nice to drop a few Spartans with 1 mag for once.
It’s in a fine place right now. Its not like H5.
I really like the AR, I understand it could be a bit OP, but it’s still balanced as a starting weapon.
I think it works fine for the default weapon but I can see where you’re coming from.
> 2535458190244984;33:
> From what I remember the problem wasn’t ADS specifically because ADS gave the AR a lot more spread. The problem is that the AR is just too accurate in mid range fights while hip firing. I think they need to slightly nerf the range. The AR was outperforming the pistol in mid range fights a lot of the time. Too much of the time. Also a side note, needler needs a nerf too, more so than the AR.
The AR is meant to outperform the pistol in general, since the sidekick is designed to be a true sidearm and not a main weapon. Hence why we have it instead of the magnum.
Aside from that though I agree, the only change the AR needs imo is a range reduction. Either in the form of more aggressive bloom or closer red range and damage reduction outside of said range. Maybe a slight damage decrease too, imo making it take 3 shots to the head instead of 2 to kill unshielded might be better.
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> > 2535458190244984;33:
> > From what I remember the problem wasn’t ADS specifically because ADS gave the AR a lot more spread. The problem is that the AR is just too accurate in mid range fights while hip firing. I think they need to slightly nerf the range. The AR was outperforming the pistol in mid range fights a lot of the time. Too much of the time. Also a side note, needler needs a nerf too, more so than the AR.
>
> The AR is meant to outperform the pistol in general, since the sidekick is designed to be a true sidearm and not a main weapon. Hence why we have it instead of the magnum.
>
> Aside from that though I agree, the only change the AR needs imo is a range reduction. Either in the form of more aggressive bloom or closer red range and damage reduction outside of said range. Maybe a slight damage decrease too, imo making it take 3 shots to the head instead of 2 to kill unshielded might be better.
This sort of constructive criticism is exactly what 343 needs. Maybe the changes you propose would work, maybe they wouldn’t. The point is that we’re trying to figure out what changes are needed. More flights await!
> 2535458190244984;33:
> From what I remember the problem wasn’t ADS specifically because ADS gave the AR a lot more spread. The problem is that the AR is just too accurate in mid range fights while hip firing. I think they need to slightly nerf the range. The AR was outperforming the pistol in mid range fights a lot of the time. Too much of the time. Also a side note, needler needs a nerf too, more so than the AR.
I believe that the ADS doesn’t give any extra spread, pretty sure the reticle gets a little bigger just because it’s in zoom where everything gets a bit bigger. If the reticle were it stay the same sice in zoom it would mean that you’d get less spread. I wouldn’t swear on my life it’s this way, but I’m pretty sure the spread is unchanged in ADS.
The other things you’re saying I mostly agree with, I kinda felt like the Sidekick was left in the corner of the sandbox and was pretty useless, I agree that the AR outperformed it in literally every single situation. Some are saying that it’s role is just to get those last shots in if the AR ammo runs out, but I find that a silly role because you can do that with literally any other weapon just as well as. It would be way better if the pistol and AR complimented each others flaws in my opinion.
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> I love how the MA40 AR had a bit of a buff to it, was nice to drop a few Spartans with 1 mag for once.
I agree with you on this. But that isn’t really the point.