Are Custom Loadouts an evolution?

One of the main pro 343/Halo 4 arguments is Halo needed to evolve. My question is how are custom loadouts an evolution?

1999 was the year Counter Strike was released as a Half Life mod. The first game I can think of that utilized custom loadouts and an unlock system. CS’s loadouts were based on equipment and weapons. While its unlock system was based on round to round performance and nothing carried over to a new match. If anyone can think of a custom loadout game before CS please post it. But my point is its hardly an evolution in 2013. Its simply a design choice.

A choice that fundamentally changes the core of Halo. Any fan of Halo MP understand Halo was respected as an arena shooter yet controversial as a loadout shooter. There is nothing wrong liking loadout shooters like COD or CS, but saying Halo needs them to evolve is wrong. Its wrong because custom loadouts are not an evolution in any way shape or form. Plus there are PLENTY of shooters that do it better than Halo Reach and Halo 4.

So how can 343 evolve Halo? My suggestions are based on the foundation built on Halo CE-3 and Reach’s co-op and Forge.

Maps. More interactive maps like Zanzibar/Last Resort, Standoff, Orbital. Maps that can be changed through player interaction. Closing pathways, opening new areas, timed map changes similar to Gears of War.

Forge Firefight.

Fully customizable Forge pallets. Give Forgers the ability to change sky boxes, lighting, , weather, raise/lower terrain.

Campaign. More open levels like CE and Reach. Timed levels or objectives like CE.

Multiplayer. Ranked for the competitive crowd, Social for the not so competitive crowd like myself. Every enhancement, power weapon or powerup should be fought for on the map. Even starts for everything. But have variants for every primary or precision weapon(Team BRs, Team DMRs, Team, LRs). I still play Halo 3 daily and I dont understand why Bungie never added a Carbine variant. Once again, if you like custom loadouts that doesnt mean Halo needs them, nor does it mean its an evolution in today’s shooter market. An improvement on previous Halo features would be a true evolution.

I’m sure many will disagree. Also I’ve come to the realization that Halo will never be great again. Maybe 343 will try to cram both styles of FPS(custom loadout and arena) in MM but I doubt it will work. I dont think it will work because they would need maps like Guardian for no sprint/arena gameplay and maps like Adrift for AAs and other nonsense. I’m just not sure 343 has a staff that understand Halo as an arena shooter so any attempt will be poorly done.

I’d like to add that many games that changed their core mechanics have alienated its core fanbase AND have overall forgettable experiences. Not because Loadouts are bad but because they dont appeal to every person despite a certain shooter’s popularity. A few examples are Crysis, Medal of Honor, Gears of War(judgement), and of course Halo 4.

tl;dr. Loadout Customization is a 14 year old game mechanic, not an evolutionary feature Halo needs.

> One of the main pro 343/Halo 4 arguments is Halo needed to evolve. My question is how are custom loadouts an evolution?

No one said that they were an evolution. Some said that they were an imitation, and others (like me) say that it has potential to be perfect.

> A choice that fundamentally changes the core of Halo. Any fan of Halo MP understand Halo was respected as an arena shooter yet controversial as a loadout shooter. There is nothing wrong liking loadout shooters like COD or CS, but saying Halo needs them to evolve is wrong. Its wrong because custom loadouts are not an evolution in any way shape or form. Plus there are PLENTY of shooters that do it better than Halo Reach and Halo 4.

They don’t have to neccessarily change the core aspects of the game, however. The sandbox has always been balanced, the only reason that some weapons in Halo 4 were altered/scrapped was to make the game more “accessible” to the audience (EXAMPLE: The reason that the Promethean Weapons were reskinned UNSC weapons was not a result of making them balanced for loadouts, it was a result of Josh Holmes wanting to make the game more accessible and less confusing.)

Also, you say that Loadouts work much better in other games than they do in Halo, but that’s merely an illusion. Halo 4’s Loadout System was just an imitation of Call of Duty’s. If 343i had designed their own loadout system for Halo 4 rather than using Call of Duty’s, they wouldn’t have been such a problem as they are right now.

Custom Loadouts, I agree, should not have been implemented at all, or at least should have been done better. But now that we’ve veered off in this direction, it’s best to polish what Halo already has and then expand on it. It is true that these aren’t an evolution, but they still add more variety and difference in battle. They for now have to balance the Loadouts, I’d like to think as Halos Reach and 4 being betas for an epic game.

There are many ways this could be solved: Gametype Specific, Massive Universal Overhaul on the system, or a Map Specific one.

Gametype Specific is as the name implies, there is a weapon not needed, or does not fit, then they remove the weapon or AA or etc

Universal: is what most people go on in Loadouts for this forum.

Primaries-Universal

Assault Rifle
Storm Rifle
Suppressor
Battle Rifle
Carbine

Secondaries
Magnum
Needle Pistol
SMG
Plasma Rifle

AAs
Thruster Pack
HardLight Shield
Hologram
Hacker
Auto Sentry

Everything Else Removed

Personally I have stated this for months now but I prefer gametype specifics as they can bend to all the needs of said gametypes.

Also Custom Loadouts didn’t change the core gameplay, but instead ‘innovated’ far too drastically.

EDIT: I forgot Map-type specific
Small-Medium-Large
1.Autos 2.All 3.Precisions

> Custom Loadouts, at least should have been done better.

Most this.

Why do people complain about custom loadouts? Because in matchmaking it’s a complete guessing game on what people are going to spawn with, in Reach you at least had a basic idea of what weapon people will spawn with.

I say this because you playing a player vs player game, you don’t want to be fighting another player who spawns in with a weapon you think/feel is more powerful than what you have.

Matchmaking should either have the old Halo CE-3 weapon loadout, or be the Reach loadout system, not custom loadouts.

Now PvE like Fire Fight and Spartan Ops, where all of the players are on the same side, can you honestly tell me that you give two craps if Player 1 spawns in with a DMR, player 2 spawns in with a BR, and player 3 spawns in with a AR? No, all you care is that you kill your targets, and that you don’t die.

Custom loadouts should be for Custom Games, and PvE game modes. Custom Games should have full control over the type of loadout system people use in the match, something like Halo 3’s and Reach’s gametype settings, not what Halo 4 has right now.

> > One of the main pro 343/Halo 4 arguments is Halo needed to evolve. My question is how are custom loadouts an evolution?
>
> <mark>No one said that they were an evolution. Some said that they were an imitation, and others (like me) say that it has potential to be perfect.</mark>
>
>
>
> > A choice that fundamentally changes the core of Halo. Any fan of Halo MP understand Halo was respected as an arena shooter yet controversial as a loadout shooter. There is nothing wrong liking loadout shooters like COD or CS, but saying Halo needs them to evolve is wrong. Its wrong because custom loadouts are not an evolution in any way shape or form. Plus there are PLENTY of shooters that do it better than Halo Reach and Halo 4.
>
> They don’t have to neccessarily change the core aspects of the game, however. The sandbox has always been balanced, the only reason that some weapons in Halo 4 were altered/scrapped was to make the game more “accessible” to the audience (EXAMPLE: The reason that the Promethean Weapons were reskinned UNSC weapons was not a result of making them balanced for loadouts, it was a result of Josh Holmes wanting to make the game more accessible and less confusing.)
>
> Also, you say that Loadouts work much better in other games than they do in Halo, but that’s merely an illusion. Halo 4’s Loadout System was just an imitation of Call of Duty’s. If 343i had designed their own loadout system for Halo 4 rather than using Call of Duty’s, they wouldn’t have been such a problem as they are right now.

Andycu5’s right.

Who the heck told you load outs are an evolution? I assure you that whoever told you this doesn’t have any supporters so I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

There are a lot of people on these forums that have perfectly reasonable arguments on why load outs could work. This is not one of those good arguments.

Yes load outs aren’t a new thing. Who ever told you they were is living under a rock it’s common knowledge they’re not. 343 brought them in to make the game more accessible for new players.

Load outs being an evolution is not the reason I think they have potential in Halo.

> No one said that they were an evolution. Some said that they were an imitation, and others (like me) say that it has potential to be perfect.
>
>
>
> They don’t have to neccessarily change the core aspects of the game, however. The sandbox has always been balanced, the only reason that some weapons in Halo 4 were altered/scrapped was to make the game more “accessible” to the audience (EXAMPLE: The reason that the Promethean Weapons were reskinned UNSC weapons was not a result of making them balanced for loadouts, it was a result of Josh Holmes wanting to make the game more accessible and less confusing.)
>
> Also, you say that Loadouts work much better in other games than they do in Halo, but that’s merely an illusion. Halo 4’s Loadout System was just an imitation of Call of Duty’s. If 343i had designed their own loadout system for Halo 4 rather than using Call of Duty’s, they wouldn’t have been such a problem as they are right now.

  1. You sure about that? Maybe you should read the forums. A LOT of people have called loadouts an evolution. Saying no one did is ignorant.

  2. I’m not sure what your point is here. Loadouts have changed the core. You say they dont have to, but allowing people to choose abilities and weapons off spawn change Halo’s arena shooter core into something else.

  3. Its not an illusion. Halo 4’s loadout system breaks maps and other aspects of Halo’s foundation such as vehicular combat. Counter-Strikes loadouts dont negatively affect the gameplay its promoting. Call of Duty also has a better loadout system because its crafted to be whatever you want. In BO2 you can make a character all about speed. For example, Fastmags,quickdraw,lightwieght,fasthands,dexterity make for a very specific playstyle. Or a defensive class:flack jacket,toughness,tac mask. and these things can be mixed and matched without breaking gameplay. I’m the furthest from a COD fan but BO2 really made me respect the series. COD does what it does good.
    I’m not sure what 343 was going for because its abilities and perks dont seem to come together in any organized way. Its just a bunch of stuff.

I’m not even sure what you mean by illusion. There are games that have better loadout customization than Halo 4. Thats clear as day.

That said, only certain aspects of loadouts are harmful, such as aas, perks, and certain weapons. Switching to Precision primary, automatic secondary, and 1x grenade choice as your only options wouldn’t make any negative impact on the game, it would just promote some player preference options.

> > No one said that they were an evolution. Some said that they were an imitation, and others (like me) say that it has potential to be perfect.
> >
> >
> >
> > They don’t have to neccessarily change the core aspects of the game, however. The sandbox has always been balanced, the only reason that some weapons in Halo 4 were altered/scrapped was to make the game more “accessible” to the audience (EXAMPLE: The reason that the Promethean Weapons were reskinned UNSC weapons was not a result of making them balanced for loadouts, it was a result of Josh Holmes wanting to make the game more accessible and less confusing.)
> >
> > Also, you say that Loadouts work much better in other games than they do in Halo, but that’s merely an illusion. Halo 4’s Loadout System was just an imitation of Call of Duty’s. If 343i had designed their own loadout system for Halo 4 rather than using Call of Duty’s, they wouldn’t have been such a problem as they are right now.
>
> 1. You sure about that? Maybe you should read the forums. A LOT of people have called loadouts an evolution. Saying no one did is ignorant.

I haven’t seen a single person say that Loadouts were an “evolution.”

Not once.

> . I’m not sure what your point is here. Loadouts have changed the core. You say they dont have to, but allowing people to choose abilities and weapons off spawn change Halo’s arena shooter core into something else.

If it were my choice, Loadouts would only offer a choice between primary and secondary weapons. All of those gamebreaking features such as AAs and Perks would be gone.

> 3. Its not an illusion. Halo 4’s loadout system breaks maps and other aspects of Halo’s foundation such as vehicular combat.

Halo 4’s Loadout system destroyed vehicle combat because it let people spawn with Plasma Pistol and Plasma Grenades. If that wasn’t an option anymore, then there wouldn’t be any problems with vehicles.

The only reason that it effects map movement is because game breaking abilities such as being able to fly, being able to sprint indefinitely, and being able to see through walls are freely handed to the player. Removing AAs and Perks from the game would fix this.

> I’m not even sure what you mean by illusion. There are games that have better loadout customization than Halo 4. Thats clear as day.

The illusion that I’ve been referring to is the fact that Call of Duty’s loadout formula won’t work in Halo. Rather than creating their own loadout system and taking creative liberties, 343 Industries decided that it would be better to use a system from a completely different game and just assume that there wouldn’t be problems with it.

Call of Duty’s Loadout Formula won’t work in Halo. That’s as clear as day.

HOWEVER, that does not mean that it is impossible for Halo to have its own loadout formula. One that doesn’t offer the player gamechanging abilities, and one that soley dedicates itself to catering to a player’s strength/comfort zone in combat.

The only thing that Loadouts should offer are a choice between the following:

PRIMARY WEAPONS:
- Assault Rifle
- Storm Rifle
- Battle Rifle
- Carbine
SECONDARY WEAPONS:
- Halo 4 era Magnum
- GHOST OF MA1N3’s Needle Pistol
- Halo 3 era SMG
- Halo 3 era Plasma Rifle

While many people have pointed out the fact that they’d rather not have the Plasma Rifle return just to be a weakened version of the CE incarnation again, which is a valid issue, there are ways to give the weapon its character and set it different from the SMG. If the Plasma Rifle were to adopt the Plasma Repeater’s ability to gain accuracy at the cost of ROF, it’d be unique from the SMG and it’d still be balanced as an automatic secondary weapon.

While on first glance, the Needle Pistol that was first thought of by GHOST OF MA1N3 may seem like a reskinned Magnum, the accepted function of it makes it a rather different weapon. The Needle Pistol has a higher rate of fire than the Magnum but with less damage/shot, and it uses three round bursts instead of single bullets. Rather than being headshot capable, the Needle Pistol delivers its final blow with a supercombine once three bursts hit an unshielded target. Also, similar to the CE Magnum and the Needle Rifle, holding down the trigger of the Needle Pistol will allow it to fire automatically.

This argument reminds me of a similar story I heard once. A Major German car maker was initially having difficulty selling cars in the U.S… To their befuddled astonishment they found out the reason was that their cars had no cup holders because Germans had no need for cup holders they just drive cars and do not eat in them. Well they amended that and soon after their cars were selling in America.

The point i am trying to make is that it’s not that important if the idea is new, the important part is if you need to use it to make your product successful. Although this story ended positively for the auto maker, in contrast the addition of loadouts did not make Halo 4 more successful because the sad reality is that the popular majority of gamers have decided that Halo isn’t as popular as it used to be.

> HOWEVER, that does not mean that it is impossible for Halo to have its own loadout formula. One that doesn’t offer the player gamechanging abilities, and one that soley dedicates itself to catering to a player’s strength/comfort zone in combat.
>
> The only thing that Loadouts should offer are a choice between the following:
>
> PRIMARY WEAPONS:
> - Assault Rifle
> - Storm Rifle
> - Battle Rifle
> - Carbine
> SECONDARY WEAPONS:
> - Halo 4 era Magnum
> - GHOST OF MA1N3’s Needle Pistol
> - Halo 3 era SMG
> - Halo 3 era Plasma Rifle
>
> While many people have pointed out the fact that they’d rather not have the Plasma Rifle return just to be a weakened version of the CE incarnation again, which is a valid issue, there are ways to give the weapon its character and set it different from the SMG. If the Plasma Rifle were to adopt the Plasma Repeater’s ability to gain accuracy at the cost of ROF, it’d be unique from the SMG and it’d still be balanced as an automatic secondary weapon.
>
> While on first glance, the Needle Pistol that was first thought of by GHOST OF MA1N3 may seem like a reskinned Magnum, the accepted function of it makes it a rather different weapon. The Needle Pistol has a higher rate of fire than the Magnum but with less damage/shot, and it uses three round bursts instead of single bullets. Rather than being headshot capable, the Needle Pistol delivers its final blow with a supercombine once three bursts hit an unshielded target. Also, similar to the CE Magnum and the Needle Rifle, holding down the trigger of the Needle Pistol will allow it to fire automatically.

I agree with AndyCu5.

And Gold LBS, you were correct about Halo being an Arena Shooter. I think it is very important that Halo returns to an Arena Shooter and we have equal loadouts.

But equal does not mean identical. And like the loadout choices AndyCu5 has listed above I think is perfect. It’s balanced and items that were game breaking in H4 are now map pickup.

PERKS should be removed. And AA to be map pickups. But different to Halo 3 Equipment.

The best way I think to do this came from SWIFT. AA/Equipment can have multiple uses depending how strong/weak the AA/Equipment is.

For example, the Bubble Shield, Power Drainer, Trip mine Etc would have 1 use.

Whilst the: Hologram, Evade, Thruster Pack, Etc would have multiple uses. This would require AA/Equipment to be used tactically again, like they were in Halo 3. And not spammed as they have been in REACH and Halo 4.

IMO, this is a great evolution step from Halo Equipment. Of course, through game settings you can change the number of uses per each AA/Equipment and even the ability to spawn with it.

> Matchmaking should either have the old Halo CE-3 weapon loadout, or be the Reach loadout system, not custom loadouts.

I use to think this was the best choice. But have changed my mind into thinking we could have custom loadouts.

If done correctly and not poorly (Halo 4). Then Halo can have custom loadouts and still be an ARENA SHOOTER (Most Important).

However AA need to be map pickups and more like Halo 3 Equipment, but some AA/Equipment to have multiple uses.

And for PERKS, they have to be removed, they add too much randomness that are invisible to players.

POD will most likely required to be removed also.

Halo 4 Loadout system was a failure but it still showed some promise. Unfortunately 343 took too many features from COD. Halo does not need COD features.

> > Matchmaking should either have the old Halo CE-3 weapon loadout, or be the Reach loadout system, not custom loadouts.
>
> I use to think this was the best choice. But have changed my mind into thinking we could have custom loadouts.
>
> If done correctly and not poorly (Halo 4). Then Halo can have custom loadouts and still be an ARENA SHOOTER (Most Important).
>
> However AA need to be map pickups and more like Halo 3 Equipment, but some AA/Equipment to have multiple uses.
>
> And for PERKS, they have to be removed, they add too much randomness that are invisible to players.
>
> POD will most likely required to be removed also.
>
> Halo 4 Loadout system was a failure but it still showed some promise. Unfortunately 343 took too many features from COD. Halo does not need COD features.

This is what’s more than likely going to happen :slight_smile:

Are custom loadouts an evolution?
Are they superior to map pickups?

My answer: Hard to determine.

Map pickups have several advantages over loadouts. Mainly that you can limit weapons that are too powerful on a specific map.

Let’s assume the Assault Rifle breaks a specific map.
With loadouts, any map can have infinite assault rifles.
With map pickups, I can limit the amount of assault rifles on any given map.

Obviously, map pickups would be the superior choice. As allowing everyone to spawn with a map-breaking weapon can lead to undesirable gameplay and major imbalance in sandbox usage.

But what if there is a map where spawning with assault rifles isn’t an issue at all?

Loadouts would be the superior choice.

There’s no reason to make people wait 30s for an AR to spawn, or have them walk ten feet to grab one of the sixteen already on the map, when the AR doesn’t effect the map in any negative form.

Do I think we should all just spawn with BR’s all the time?
Honestly, no.
I’d prefer map-specific starts, where your starting weapon is catered to the map’s design.

> Are custom loadouts an evolution?
> Are they superior to map pickups?
>
> My answer: Hard to determine.
>
> Map pickups have several advantages over loadouts. Mainly that you can limit weapons that are too powerful on a specific map.
>
> Let’s assume the Assault Rifle breaks a specific map.
> With loadouts, any map can have infinite assault rifles.
> With map pickups, I can limit the amount of assault rifles on any given map.
>
> Obviously, map pickups would be the superior choice. As allowing everyone to spawn with a map-breaking weapon can lead to undesirable gameplay and major imbalance in sandbox usage.
>
> But what if there is a map where spawning with assault rifles isn’t an issue at all?
>
> Loadouts would be the superior choice.
>
> There’s no reason to make people wait 30s for an AR to spawn, or have them walk ten feet to grab one of the sixteen already on the map, when the AR doesn’t effect the map in any negative form.
>
> Do I think we should all just spawn with BR’s all the time?
> Honestly, no.
> I’d prefer map-specific starts, where your starting weapon is catered to the map’s design.

I think a small selection of weapons and armor abilities should be available off of spawn. Mid range Precision rifles/pistols and automatics work because they necessitate map movement better than long range rifles do when in loadouts. The DMR on the map is fine and is why a mixed loadout and on map system works best in my opinion. Loadouts are small and easy to balance, while most of the important weapons are on the map and are able to be tuned by map accordingly.

Armor abilities can work on spawn if they are don correctly and we have only seen that with one or two abilities so far, one of them being the hologram. Thruster pack needs a little adjustments here and there, like a charge requirement, so that it’s not a crutch as much and regen should only heal team mates so that it doesn’t promote popping a field next to cover and just moving back and forth during mid range engagements. As long as the abilities we have on spawn are skillful, are not based on one button actions like armor lock or evade, and none should interfere with map design like jet pack does, they work. That is however, IMO.