A theory in progress, of course. None of the following is confirmed information, and I’m only offering this as an idea.
It is my belief that the player will be able to decide whether they want to spawn with the DMR, the BR or the AR at the start of a game (it will be the player’s choice as part of a custom load-out they make). There has to be some balance to this; and it seems obvious to me.
The MA5C Assault Rifle - a friend that returns from Halo 3, the MA5C will be “beefier” according to the recent Sparkast. I expect that this means it will do the most damage per bullet and rightly so; the AR has long been due an update which makes it a useful and viable weapon to use (even in CQB in previous games, the AR was fairly ineffective). The counterbalance to the AR’s ferocious power should of course be its range. The Sparkast did mention that burst-firing will still be a necessity if you want to retain the AR’s accuracy at longer ranges.
The BR85HB Battle Rifle - a returning legend from Halo games past, and my personal favourite, the BR will be the same burst-fire mid-range rifle it has always been; furthermore, we are aware that the BR will be hitscan in this game, akin to how it worked in Halo 2 (which is awesome!). In my opinion, the BR will fit between the AR and the DMR; each BR bullet is less powerful than an AR bullet, but the BR has superior range.
The M392 Designated Marksman Rifle - the Reach Rifle is back and with a thirst for cross-mappin’ blood. Whilst we have no idea whether the DMR is the same model as in Reach or even if it functions the same, it’s a likelihood that the DMR will operate more efficiently at long ranges than the AR or BR, and will thus be the weapon of choice for anyone who enjoys surpressing and killing enemy snipers. The DMR is likely to have the least damage per bullet of them all, but will be able to pick off AR and BR users at extreme distances with enough patience in the shots.
This is all, of course, my opinion; but I’m interested to know what you guys think about how these three rifles will work in a single, smooth flowing Halo game.
IMO the damage per bullet should be exactly the same and the only change should be (of course) the rate of fire, the capacity and the range of effectiveness.
The DMR should be ineffective at close range but should have a fast RoF but it is a one shot weapon, obviously.
The BR should be effective in all ranges but most effective in middle range. It’s rate of fire would be much slower (the slowest) but it will be a three round burst. This weapon should have minor recoil. This would be the default weapon.
The AR should ineffective at long range and only effective in middle range if you burst fire it due to extreme recoil. At close range, only the shotgun and melee weapons could beat it as they are customly designed for it. BR conditions should be mimic-able, but the heavy recoil would make choosing the BR much more effective at mid range.
The secondaries should also be balanceed against eachother, for instance:
Pistol: mid-long range. Effective against health, relatively slow rate of fire. 4 shot kill. Medium recoil.
SMG: close-mid range. Effective against shields, high rate of fire. 3/5 of a magazine should be used to kill. High recoil.
So the damage per bullet from an automatic weapon should be stronger than a three shot burst weapon and even more stronger than a single shot weapon? Yes, makes total sense…
I do like how the OP accounts for the 3 niche ranges of short, medium and long.
> So the damage per bullet from an automatic weapon should be stronger than a three shot burst weapon and even more stronger than a single shot weapon? Yes, makes total sense…
It’s the RoF that determines the strength of a shot, not the function of the shot itself.
The MA5 is a fullyautomatic 16-19 bullet killer but doesn’t register headshots and varies its kill time by almost double from CE’s 16 to Reach’s 19 due to its RoF changes.
The BR is a burst action 12-21 bullet killer and that depends on if you register a headshot after the shields drop or not.
The DMR is semi-auto single shot 5-7 bullet killer that depends on if you register a headshot after the shields drop or not.
The NR is a fullyautomatic single shot 7-9 bullet killer that depends on if you register a headshot or not.
As you can see, the blanket statement of shot-type, without RoF comparisons, doesn’t make much sense either.
As for the “triangle of power,” it’s gametype and map dependent, if they go that route IMO.
BTB should be similar to CEA-BTB setups with either long rifle starts and either a Pistol or AR as the secondary.
If the SMG returned and was similar in effectiveness as the H3AR, while the AR itself is buffed up to almost CE-effectiveness, then I could see the SMG being an option.
Players could then have
Rifle (AR/BR/DMR) primaries with the SMG, M6 or AR as secondaries (the AR being a BTB secondary option.
So you could get BR+Pistol/SMG, DMR+Pistol/SMG or AR+Pistol/SMG in default gametypes (6 perms) with BR+AR/M6/SMG or DMR+AR/M6/SMG for BTB gametypes (6 perms).
> > It’s the RoF that determines the strength of a shot, not the function of the shot itself.
>
> Herp derp burp…
> The type of load, range, and accuracy determine the ‘strength’ of shot. Not RoF.
That determines the weapon type, ie the amount and type of damage that is suppose to be inflicted over a given time.
The RoF of a weapon type then determines the individual shot damage.
> Rate of fire is 99.9% useless if you shoot 25 pillowsoft bullets per second from a mile away and miss every shot.
It’s equally useless if you miss every shot from your sniper or DMR.
I think OP is quite right, they want to create a balanced weapon playground, where no one gun is superior (or close to) at any time. Sure, only using BR was a blast, but it leaves most of the other “normal” weapons useless.
Halo sure could use a higher skillgap, and balancing the weapons is a great way to do so, especially since both BR and DMR are going to be present in the same game. AR surely needs a buff, it’s worthless and has always been for MP, it’s not a close range weapon, it’s a mere annoyance no matter range.
Br should be much like it used to be, although less effective at close range, maybe lower fire rate or smaller magazine, something to make sure the AR at least stands a chance.
DMR sure would be a great counter for snipers, BR is good but not accurate enough. Sure, DMR can be used for cross-mapping, especially if teamed up with another player sniping down the shields, but should be horrible for close range and at least worse then BR for mid range.
The DMR or BR really don’t need to be less effective than they already are outside their niches, some weapons need to be more effective/wider niched than they currently are.
The idea should be that when all things are equal, yes Paper beats Rock.
But no situation ever is as simple as Rock-Paper-Scissors, and simple things like the M45 compared to the M90 from H3 is how the AR should be tweaked, an extension to range via spread-tightening,
while nothing too elaborated like the Vanilla DMR or VM6 should be used hinder a precision weapon.
It’s ok that the BR or DMR are half or even a full tier in effectiveness over the AR due to their headshot+range capabilities. But this difference in tier separation should be based more on range exploitation rather than power so that on small maps, the apparent tier difference is negligible.
But that’s not to forget that when things are considered equal but the weapons, the niche ranges should appear for weapons. What should not be is that when things are not equal, the same niche functions appear.
> The DMR or BR really don’t need to be less effective than they already are outside their niches, some weapons need to be more effective/wider niched than they currently are.
>
> The idea should be that when all things are equal, yes Paper beats Rock.
> But no situation ever is as simple as Rock-Paper-Scissors, and simple things like the M45 compared to the M90 from H3 is how the AR should be tweaked, an extension to range via spread-tightening,
> while nothing too elaborated like the Vanilla DMR or VM6 should be used hinder a precision weapon.
>
>
>
> It’s ok that the BR or DMR are half or even a full tier in effectiveness over the AR due to their headshot+range capabilities. But this difference in tier separation should be based more on range exploitation rather than power so that on small maps, the apparent tier difference is negligible.
>
> But that’s not to forget that when things are considered equal but the weapons, the niche ranges should appear for weapons. What should not be is that when things are not equal, the same niche functions appear.
Very well put! Niches should exist, but they should not be so strict that large differences in skillful use cannot override the niches. For example, the AR if it got a big general damage boost as well as headshot damage boost but was balanced with more recoil / bloom would be an excellent weapon. A good AR user would be capable of beating
a mediocre BR user at medium range by utilizing burst fire. In Halo 3 and Reach, there is almost zero chance of that.
A large of that problem is due to weapon design, but a lot of it also has to do with things like bullet magnetism and slow strafe responsiveness making weapons like the BR TOO EASY TO USE. That takes away from skill differentiation. The CE pistol, while under optimum use killing much faster than the BR or DMR, on average probably killed a little bit slower because it was so much harder to use. Low bullet magnetism, fast movement speed, responsive strafe, and bullet leading meant that 3sk on good players were a rarity. That creates a massive skillgap and also enabled other weapons like the shotgun to beat the pistol even at medium range because it was harder to land pistol shots.
Sounds very similar to in Gears of War 3, you can choose to spawn with the retro lancer, as close-range rifle, the lancer, a mid-range rifle, and a hammerburst, a long-range rifle. It seemed to work pretty well in GOW3.
I’m actually OK w/ the weapons so long as the AR & BR work as they did in H3 & personally I was do not care about the DMR, but i will say that i would like it to not have a bloom & work as it does in TU ZB Reach. Reach magnum & H3 SMG is they way i look at it. As long as they can do damage then i can kill the other guy no matter his weapon. Also not boosting just saying its a fact that if they give us the variants i listed then they should work the best & kill the most…well by my standard :3
In reality, assuming they are the same caliber, all bullets would deal the exact same amount of damage.
I think the main issue isn’t the damage per bullet, but the rates of fire.
The idea that the OP has wouldn’t be balanced at all and would allow the AR to kill way to quickly up close.
Say the DMR kills in 6 shots. That means the BR would kill in, say, 4 shots.
That seems fine as long as the DMR is more effectife at range and the BR fires quicker. BUT, if the AR has the most damage per bullet, then the AR would kill in probably 3 shots. Combine that with the highest rate of fire. That’s just ridiculous.
That’s why the AR should not do the most damage per bullet. It would just turn the AR into your average CoD/Battlefield weapon at it’s intended range.
I think 343’s goal should be to keep all three weapons at the same kill times at their effective ranges.
If they make the AR any more powerful than H3, I see a big problem unless they make the BR more powerful.
The AR should never outplay a BR, given the BR user is very skilled, and misses 1-2 shots at most. It’s a fact that the BR takes a lot more skill than the AR. So what point would there be in using the BR? The game will just end up being a mindless, right-trigger spamming grenade-fest, which is exactly what we saw with Reach.
Except, Reach’s AR wasn’t even that powerful. I shudder to think that they made it more powerful in H4.
> Niches should exist, but they should not be so strict that large differences in skillful use cannot override the niches.
A quote from another player that sums up my thoughts.