Another sprint poll everybody!

Games Halo: The Master Chief Collection
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> > > I wish pro sprint people could come up with decent rebuttals. Or at the very least have a baseline understanding of all aspects and effects of sprint. It would atleast make the forums more interesting.
> > >
> > > Atleast when we used to argue things like BR vs AR spawns, I disagreed with AR spawns but a lot of people that did like AR spawns actually understood the effects of both sides and could form coherent thoughts.
> > >
> > > “I like it”
> > >
> > > Well, Id like crystal -Yoink!- if I had no understanding of the negatives it comes with and only saw the immediate effect.
> >
> >
> >
> > well if the players against sprint weren’t so blind sided… they hate it so refuse to accept any answer from players who like it and even come up with stuff like oh you aren’t “moving faster with sprint” as ways to try to convince themselves that sprint doesn’t add anything to the game. its all matter of opinion. its so funny people trying to justify whether you should like it or not.
>
>
> It is a matter of opinion. Unfortunately most people don’t understand all the facts so their opinion is uneducated.
>
> If someone can write up all the effects sprint has on map design and why they like what it does…cool. I hope they have fun with H5.
>
> The problem is, I haven’t seen this. Ever.

And I’ve never seen anybody with your opinion give me anything but anecdotal evidence about sprint. I’m just saying.

182

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> > > > I wish pro sprint people could come up with decent rebuttals. Or at the very least have a baseline understanding of all aspects and effects of sprint. It would atleast make the forums more interesting.
> > > >
> > > > Atleast when we used to argue things like BR vs AR spawns, I disagreed with AR spawns but a lot of people that did like AR spawns actually understood the effects of both sides and could form coherent thoughts.
> > > >
> > > > “I like it”
> > > >
> > > > Well, Id like crystal -Yoink!- if I had no understanding of the negatives it comes with and only saw the immediate effect.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > well if the players against sprint weren’t so blind sided… they hate it so refuse to accept any answer from players who like it and even come up with stuff like oh you aren’t “moving faster with sprint” as ways to try to convince themselves that sprint doesn’t add anything to the game. its all matter of opinion. its so funny people trying to justify whether you should like it or not.
> >
> >
> >
> > It is a matter of opinion. Unfortunately most people don’t understand all the facts so their opinion is uneducated.
> >
> > If someone can write up all the effects sprint has on map design and why they like what it does…cool. I hope they have fun with H5.
> >
> > The problem is, I haven’t seen this. Ever.
>
>
> And I’ve never seen anybody with your opinion give me anything but anecdotal evidence about sprint. I’m just saying.

probably hasn’t happened cause those who don’t like sprint always usually say… nah uh it does not…

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> >
> > Um
> >
> > Did you play the BETA? Did you play the oh so ironically named “Truth”. That’s H5’s version of Midship. If you cannot tell that Truth is a large, stretched out version of Midship without a comparison video i’d say arguements on the internet about sprint are the least of your concerns. You should probably contact an optometrist because you have some kind of serious eye defect.
> >
> > I was an avid forger in both H3 and Reach and I can tell you right now, designing maps in those games was different because of sprint(and jetpack, but thank baby jesus we no longer have to discuss that one). If you don’t believe me, look at Reach’s “Team Classic” playlist. It was an all forge creation map playlist consisting of remakes of Hce, H2 and H3 maps. Except all the maps were stretched out. They had to be.
> >
> > It’s very basic logic.
> >
> > If your kill time on lets say the DMR is 1.7 seconds you have to make sure that most of the objects on your map have enough space between them so that a player can kill someone in 1.7 seconds. Once you add sprint to the game players can get between those same pieces of cover in a much shorter amount of time than 1.7 seconds. So, you have to stretch the distance between those pieces of cover out. It’s very basic map design.
> >
> > Example- Let’s say in H3 you have two walls and it takes a player 2 seconds to get from one wall to the other. The BR kill time is 1.6 seconds. That works.
> >
> > Now, lets say you add sprint in. It now takes 1 second to get from wall to wall. The kill time is 1.6 seconds. That doesn’t work. You now have to make the gap between those walls twice as large as it used to be.
>
>
> I understand what you’re trying to tell me and, like I said, it makes sense on paper. But games and maps aren’t developed on paper. Even objective facts can sometimes be deceiving when we’re talking about two different game engines. If you took the time to read my earlier replies in this thread instead of resorting to that ad hominem about my eye sight (seriously, you can drop the attitude), you’d note that I cited Truth in the Halo 5: Guardians beta as a map that felt perfectly comfortable, even without sprint. It’s more about the context of the engine and the game mechanics - I agree with you there. So I played a couple of matches in it without using sprint, just as an experiment. The flow of the map felt very similar to the original Midship in Halo 2, which I went and played for direct comparison immediately after!
>
> Truth might be objectively the larger map, but in the context of the games mechanics, its travel times and sight lines feel spot on, even without sprinting. Besides, can you present to me any piece of evidence that shows that Truth is a significantly larger map than Midship because of sprint? Because, speaking honestly, it could just be because the former has a pinpoint accurate DMR featured on it. It could be because the Smart Scope affects automatic weapons, making them much more accurate across the map. All of these things would warrant adjustments to the map’s sight lines. So, say Truth is bigger than Midship. So what? It could be for any of these reasons! You can’t tell me you have design documents proving it was because of sprint.
>
> And I absolutely want to note that you can feel free to tell me that my opinion is garbage. That’s fine. I will tell you that yours is, too. That’s what we’re dealing with here, after all: anecdotal evidence. That’s a subjective thing, I might add. You’ve yet to present and hard facts to me that back up what you’re saying. And that’s all I’m asking for.
>
> I can even use a piece of evidence that somebody gave me to try to refute what I was saying earlier: Here is a video which shows direct comparisons between Halo 3’s The Pit and Halo 4’s Pitfall. As you can see from the video, Pitfall is a direct one-to-one remake of The Pit, despite the fact that Halo 4 features sprint and Halo 3 does not. Do you want to explain that to me? Because this piece of evidence kind of dismantles your neat little theory about map construction (and I would wager that a comparison between Valhalla and Ragnarok would, too). Like I said, what you’re saying to me is sound on paper, but this video clearly demonstrates that 343 Industries doesn’t always follow the same set of rules that you do when they’re developing maps, so how is what you’re telling me relevant at all?

I didn’t design any or my maps on paper. I did it in forge. I can also tell you that inside of Halo Reach we had the ZBNS settings. This was the same game, and ZBNS settings required different map designs than default Reach simply because ZBNS had no sprint.

Your experiences on Truth are much different than mine. I found it played much different than midship did. I actually had 3 or 4 games time out with full 4 v 4 teams. Due to the massive expanses between the bases and towers I actually found the map to play closer to something like lockout than midship.

The pit is a rare example of a map that doesn’t necessarily need to be touched up for sprint because of the fact that it already was made up of large hallways. Though I will have to take your word on pitfall, because I never actually played it. However, I can tell you that MLG’s forged remake of the pit in Reach was enlarged. Valhalla and Ragnarok are also 1:1. Those maps play very, very differently though. Both because of the oppressive long range power of the DMR and because of sprint. Ragnarok would have played much better had it been enlarged.

You’ve pointed out two maps that were not enlarged. But I can easily counter that with reflection, pinnacle, and countless bungie made forge map remakes. All enlarged.

I don’t really get how I can show you basic math and you just ignore it.

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> > > > I wish pro sprint people could come up with decent rebuttals. Or at the very least have a baseline understanding of all aspects and effects of sprint. It would atleast make the forums more interesting.
> > > >
> > > > Atleast when we used to argue things like BR vs AR spawns, I disagreed with AR spawns but a lot of people that did like AR spawns actually understood the effects of both sides and could form coherent thoughts.
> > > >
> > > > “I like it”
> > > >
> > > > Well, Id like crystal -Yoink!- if I had no understanding of the negatives it comes with and only saw the immediate effect.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > well if the players against sprint weren’t so blind sided… they hate it so refuse to accept any answer from players who like it and even come up with stuff like oh you aren’t “moving faster with sprint” as ways to try to convince themselves that sprint doesn’t add anything to the game. its all matter of opinion. its so funny people trying to justify whether you should like it or not.
> >
> >
> >
> > It is a matter of opinion. Unfortunately most people don’t understand all the facts so their opinion is uneducated.
> >
> > If someone can write up all the effects sprint has on map design and why they like what it does…cool. I hope they have fun with H5.
> >
> > The problem is, I haven’t seen this. Ever.
>
>
> And I’ve never seen anybody with your opinion give me anything but anecdotal evidence about sprint. I’m just saying.

Measurements of maps is anecdotal evidence?

Since when?

185

> Thanks for the effort, but I don’t see any evidence to support what you’re saying from the developer himself. Here is the actual quote:
>
> “We definitely have standards for the size than [sic] something can be and the time it takes from one corner of a map to the other, or one objective sight to the other. It’s to make sure we’re tuning the experience to keep the time-to-death down, or making sure that your time-to-engagement is enough to give you a breather between dying, but not so long that you’re hunting through the map and not finding people.”
>
> Did you notice that this quote doesn’t actually give any direct commentary from the developer about how the sprint mechanic influences map design? The publication itself suggests this is a factor, but I find it hard to give them credibility when they also published in this article that Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 is a 2002 title. That would’ve been a rather simple fact to check. One can infer from this developer quote that sprint does indeed influence map development somehow, but the quote simply gives no direct confirmation that the mechanic results in increased map size in general.
>
> It’s especially hard to prove when the video in the thread you linked that showed off The Pit versus Pitfall revealed that the Halo 4 version is a one-to-one remake of the Halo 3 version. That said: To do a complete and thorough study of the subject, I believe it would also be necessary to compare proportionality differences between maps in Halo: Combat Evolved, Halo 2, and Halo 3 and analyze any differences there - in addition to the games since that have added the sprint mechanic. I’m sure that you would find some Halo 2 map remakes to be a bit larger than their Combat Evolved counterparts or vice versa, very similarly to how some Halo 5: Guardians remakes may be bigger versions of older maps. What I’m saying is that even if you could prove the connection through video evidence, you’d have to conduct a more thorough study to actually prove this trend is because of the sprint mechanic. You can’t just link me to a vague quote from a Halo 4 developer that gives some general jargon about map size and a video that shows off a one-to-one Halo 4 remake of a Halo 3 map.

I did my fact checking after I made the statement. Yes I know it probably wasn’t the smartest thing to do but I’ll fix it here.

The remakes were 1:1 size. There were two remakes. The pit and Valhalla. It was even said that they would be a 1:1 size.

I was also showing you were I found the link from waypoint here. I believe I also remember Max Hoberman talking about the size of maps and the times it takes on a video from this summer when they were showing off the MCC. I’ll look for it cuz I’m actually pretty interested now. I remember he was talking about the new cover on lockout as well.

Ill also try to see if I can record times across maps of similar size from ce to 4 and compare them. I’ll probably have that done in a couple of days if I actually get some sleep.
Because I’m trying to make this kind of test as fair as possible, what maps would be similar in size? I’m thinking of doing one small, midsize, and large map from each game with a single lane across. I could make a forge lane in h3 and h4 and even h2a but I’m not sure how the base speed is in that compared to h2c. What I mean in forge lane is i’d go above the buildings and build a straight lane from one end to the other. I’ll try to test the size of the reticle across the map as well.

And back to the quote, yes it’s a little vague. But its pretty easy to tell that he meant that the times to get places are measured. They would have to include sprint or they forgot a major gameplay change there.

Let me clarify. Remakes probably won’t be stretched to meet the needs of sprint. but designed maps will be designed with sprint in mind if the developer hasn’t forgotten about it. That’s what the quote says and thats why it isn’t needed if there is a certain time anyways they could make the map smaller or the base speed higher.

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>
>
> I didn’t design any or my maps on paper. I did it in forge. I can also tell you that inside of Halo Reach we had the ZBNS settings. This was the same game, and ZBNS settings required different map designs than default Reach simply because ZBNS had no sprint.
>
> Your experiences on Truth are much different than mine. I found it played much different than midship did. I actually had 3 or 4 games time out with full 4 v 4 teams. Due to the massive expanses between the bases and towers I actually found the map to play closer to something like lockout than midship.
>
> The pit is a rare example of a map that doesn’t necessarily need to be touched up for sprint because of the fact that it already was made up of large hallways. Though I will have to take your word on pitfall, because I never actually played it. However, I can tell you that MLG’s forged remake of the pit in Reach was enlarged. Valhalla and Ragnarok are also 1:1. Those maps play very, very differently though. Both because of the oppressive long range power of the DMR and because of sprint. Ragnarok would have played much better had it been enlarged.
>
> You’ve pointed out two maps that were not enlarged. But I can easily counter that with reflection, pinnacle, and countless bungie made forge map remakes. All enlarged.
>
> I don’t really get how I can show you basic math and you just ignore it.

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> > > > > 2535440955887524;174:
> > > > > I wish pro sprint people could come up with decent rebuttals. Or at the very least have a baseline understanding of all aspects and effects of sprint. It would atleast make the forums more interesting.
> > > > >
> > > > > Atleast when we used to argue things like BR vs AR spawns, I disagreed with AR spawns but a lot of people that did like AR spawns actually understood the effects of both sides and could form coherent thoughts.
> > > > >
> > > > > “I like it”
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, Id like crystal -Yoink!- if I had no understanding of the negatives it comes with and only saw the immediate effect.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > well if the players against sprint weren’t so blind sided… they hate it so refuse to accept any answer from players who like it and even come up with stuff like oh you aren’t “moving faster with sprint” as ways to try to convince themselves that sprint doesn’t add anything to the game. its all matter of opinion. its so funny people trying to justify whether you should like it or not.
>
>
> Measurements of maps is anecdotal evidence?
>
> Since when?

Well, again, if you actually pay attention to what I’m saying, I’m not just ignoring your “simple math”. I simply take issue with it, because it’s not that simple. My video evidence actually directly refuted your math. Oh, but how could I forget that it didn’t? The Pit and Valhalla just happen to be some of the few exceptions to the map making rule that don’t require map size compensation for sprint. Haha, ooookay.

Your examples may be valid, but can you actually link them to the sprint mechanic? Perhaps they just feel bigger because, admittedly, Halo: Reach had a glacier-like base movement speed. Or, again like you said, maybe the oppressive long-range DMR can account for that size increase. Who can say? Either way, do you get it yet? You can present examples, I can present examples to the contrary, and you can counter with more examples. We can both give valid examples to demonstrate our theories. How could you possibly construe that to mean that your theory on how they make their maps is correct? There are examples that go both ways.

I also take issue with the fact that you’re implying that 343 Industries uses your math to build their maps. Or that Bungie ever did. Your computations of cover and travel times may work pretty well to make your amateur maps, but I’m not talking about your maps - that was simply a flawed example that you brought to the table. What I’m talking about are the maps that 343 Industries crafts. And, frankly, the way that you craft your maps in their map making tool is not at all verifiably linked to the way they craft their maps with their own, more advanced, map editing tools.

You didn’t give me any objective measurements of maps, to be fair. And you won’t. You can’t possibly. It’ll be next to impossible to document and categorize in similar terms all of the multiplayer maps from across the Halo saga and account for the size differences with specific mechanic-level reasons. So, yes, your theoretical “measurements” of maps (your original research) is absolutely anecdotal.

And besides: Since when have rules always absolutely informed map design? How many Halo maps can we name that have broken some fundamental map making “rules” and turned out successful anyways? I know there are a number of them. I could dig up examples if you disagree. It absolutely goes to illustrate that there exists more than one single map design philosophy. And that alone invalidates what you’re trying to say to me.

187

Sprint is good, don’t know why people dislike it, it’s good and balanced in Halo 5

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> After several years I have yet to see someone that isn’t god awful at halo support sprint.

Then you’re not looking hard enough. I’ll never claim to be the best Halo player around or anything, but I usually maintain a 1.1-2.0 K/D ratio per game and wind up near or at the top of my team. Sometimes I do worse, sometimes I do better. But that certainly can’t be defined as awful. So, by your logic, I shouldn’t support sprint. Which I suppose is somewhat correct, but I don’t denounce sprint either. I don’t freaking care. The game is still Halo, everything important, everything that makes Halo Halo is still in tact. People who waste their time complaining about a single game mechanic are laughable.

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> > > > > >
> >
> >
> >
> > I didn’t design any or my maps on paper. I did it in forge. I can also tell you that inside of Halo Reach we had the ZBNS settings. This was the same game, and ZBNS settings required different map designs than default Reach simply because ZBNS had no sprint.
> >
> > Your experiences on Truth are much different than mine. I found it played much different than midship did. I actually had 3 or 4 games time out with full 4 v 4 teams. Due to the massive expanses between the bases and towers I actually found the map to play closer to something like lockout than midship.
> >
> > The pit is a rare example of a map that doesn’t necessarily need to be touched up for sprint because of the fact that it already was made up of large hallways. Though I will have to take your word on pitfall, because I never actually played it. However, I can tell you that MLG’s forged remake of the pit in Reach was enlarged. Valhalla and Ragnarok are also 1:1. Those maps play very, very differently though. Both because of the oppressive long range power of the DMR and because of sprint. Ragnarok would have played much better had it been enlarged.
> >
> > You’ve pointed out two maps that were not enlarged. But I can easily counter that with reflection, pinnacle, and countless bungie made forge map remakes. All enlarged.
> >
> > I don’t really get how I can show you basic math and you just ignore it.
>
>
>
>
>
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> > > > 2535440955887524;178:
> > > > > 2533274816788253;175:
> > > > > > 2535440955887524;174:
> > > > > > I wish pro sprint people could come up with decent rebuttals. Or at the very least have a baseline understanding of all aspects and effects of sprint. It would atleast make the forums more interesting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Atleast when we used to argue things like BR vs AR spawns, I disagreed with AR spawns but a lot of people that did like AR spawns actually understood the effects of both sides and could form coherent thoughts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “I like it”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, Id like crystal -Yoink!- if I had no understanding of the negatives it comes with and only saw the immediate effect.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > well if the players against sprint weren’t so blind sided… they hate it so refuse to accept any answer from players who like it and even come up with stuff like oh you aren’t “moving faster with sprint” as ways to try to convince themselves that sprint doesn’t add anything to the game. its all matter of opinion. its so funny people trying to justify whether you should like it or not.
> >
> >
> >
> > Measurements of maps is anecdotal evidence?
> >
> > Since when?
>
>
> Well, again, if you actually pay attention to what I’m saying, I’m not just ignoring your “simple math”. I simply take issue with it, because it’s not that simple. My video evidence actually directly refuted your math. Oh, but how could I forget that it didn’t? The Pit and Valhalla just happen to be some of the few exceptions to the map making rule that don’t require map size compensation for sprint. Haha, ooookay.
>
> Your examples may be valid, but can you actually link them to the sprint mechanic? Perhaps they just feel bigger because, admittedly, Halo: Reach had a glacier-like base movement speed. Or, again like you said, maybe the oppressive long-range DMR can account for that size increase. Who can say? Either way, do you get it yet? You can present examples, I can present examples to the contrary, and you can counter with more examples. We can both give valid examples to demonstrate our theories. How could you possibly construe that to mean that your theory on how they make their maps is correct? There are examples that go both ways.
>
> I also take issue with the fact that you’re implying that 343 Industries uses your math to build their maps. Or that Bungie ever did. Your computations of cover and travel times may work pretty well to make your amateur maps, but I’m not talking about your maps - that was simply a flawed example that you brought to the table. What I’m talking about are the maps that 343 Industries crafts. And, frankly, the way that you craft your maps in their map making tool is not at all verifiably linked to the way they craft their maps with their own, more advanced, map editing tools.
>
> You didn’t give me any objective measurements of maps, to be fair. And you won’t. You can’t possibly. It’ll be next to impossible to document and categorize in similar terms all of the multiplayer maps from across the Halo saga and account for the size differences with specific mechanic-level reasons. So, yes, your theoretical “measurements” of maps (your original research) is absolutely anecdotal.
>
> And besides: Since when have rules always absolutely informed map design? How many Halo maps can we name that have broken some fundamental map making “rules” and turned out successful anyways? I know there are a number of them. I could dig up examples if you disagree. It absolutely goes to illustrate that there exists more than one single map design philosophy. And that alone invalidates what you’re trying to say to me.

  1. I already told you, MLG enlarged the pit for their Reach version. Ragnarok should have been enlarged, but obviously BTB maps can get away with not scaling up to sprint much more than smaller playlist maps can due to the fact that they are already inherently big. I cannot really speak to pitfall, as I never played it.

  2. Yes I can link map enlargement to sprint. The fact that you are trying to argue against this very basic logic, which has been confirmed by Bungie themselves is honestly quite baffling. If you cannot see that exact ports of maps like wizard, midship and guardian would not work with sprint(without being stretched out) because of the distance of map objects in comparison to weapon kill times than I don’t really know what to say to you. You can’t make a map in which players can sprint between all cover before another player can possibly kill them. It would play horrifically.

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> > After several years I have yet to see someone that isn’t god awful at halo support sprint.
>
>
>
> Then you’re not looking hard enough. I’ll never claim to be the best Halo player around or anything, but I usually maintain a 1.1-2.0 K/D ratio per game and wind up near or at the top of my team. Sometimes I do worse, sometimes I do better. But that certainly can’t be defined as awful. So, by your logic, I shouldn’t support sprint. Which I suppose is somewhat correct, but I don’t denounce sprint either. I don’t freaking care. The game is still Halo, everything important, everything that makes Halo Halo is still in tact. People who waste their time complaining about a single game mechanic are laughable.

Not trying to sound like an -Yoink- here. You guys already had this tangent going so i’ll just jump in here for a second…

You were a major grade 3 in Halo 3.

I don’t think it’s all that relevant but I have also never seen a good Halo player support sprint in Halo. Good to me, is a minimum level 50 in H3.

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> > > > > > > 2535440955887524;174:
> > > > > > > I wish pro sprint people could come up with decent rebuttals. Or at the very least have a baseline understanding of all aspects and effects of sprint. It would atleast make the forums more interesting.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Atleast when we used to argue things like BR vs AR spawns, I disagreed with AR spawns but a lot of people that did like AR spawns actually understood the effects of both sides and could form coherent thoughts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > “I like it”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well, Id like crystal -Yoink!- if I had no understanding of the negatives it comes with and only saw the immediate effect.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > well if the players against sprint weren’t so blind sided… they hate it so refuse to accept any answer from players who like it and even come up with stuff like oh you aren’t “moving faster with sprint” as ways to try to convince themselves that sprint doesn’t add anything to the game. its all matter of opinion. its so funny people trying to justify whether you should like it or not.
>
>
> 1. I already told you, MLG enlarged the pit for their Reach version. Ragnarok should have been enlarged, but obviously BTB maps can get away with not scaling up to sprint much more than smaller playlist maps can due to the fact that they are already inherently big. I cannot really speak to pitfall, as I never played it.
>
> 2. Yes I can link map enlargement to sprint. The fact that you are trying to argue against this very basic logic, which has been confirmed by Bungie themselves is honestly quite baffling. If you cannot see that exact ports of maps like wizard, midship and guardian would not work with sprint(without being stretched out) because of the distance of map objects in comparison to weapon kill times than I don’t really know what to say to you. You can’t make a map in which players can sprint between all cover before another player can possibly kill them. It would play horrifically.

What MLG did is irrelevant to me when 343 Industries didn’t touch the proportions of that map for Halo 4 and it still played really well, to be frank. And the bolded is exactly what I’m talking about with this little issue of evidence. You don’t like to present any. Here you’ve got this claim, but you’re just not going to show me the evidence. You’re just going to expect me to trust your integrity, anecdotes, and map-editing experience and insult me and fling ad hominem attacks at my arguments if I don’t. This is getting silly. I understand that you created maps in Forge. I understand that you think you have a complete and full mathematical and categorical understanding of each game mechanic, how it interacts with another, and how to build maps around it, but you cannot speak for the actual game developers with your own design philosophies. You can talk logic at me all you want - I’ve already told you that I understand what you’re saying in theory - but that’s not what I’m looking for at all here. I just don’t care that some amateur Forge map designer thinks that building maps entirely based on the sprinting movement speed is necessary for a good map, because that kind of evidence is absolutely as subjective as it gets.

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> > > > > > 2535440955887524;176:
> > > > > > > 2533274806352868;173:
> > > > > > > > 2533274961993641;166:
> > > > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2535440955887524;184:
> > > > > 2533274806352868;181:
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> > > > > > > 2533274816788253;175:
> > > > > > > > 2535440955887524;174:
> > > > > > > > I wish pro sprint people could come up with decent rebuttals. Or at the very least have a baseline understanding of all aspects and effects of sprint. It would atleast make the forums more interesting.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Atleast when we used to argue things like BR vs AR spawns, I disagreed with AR spawns but a lot of people that did like AR spawns actually understood the effects of both sides and could form coherent thoughts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > “I like it”
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well, Id like crystal -Yoink!- if I had no understanding of the negatives it comes with and only saw the immediate effect.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > well if the players against sprint weren’t so blind sided… they hate it so refuse to accept any answer from players who like it and even come up with stuff like oh you aren’t “moving faster with sprint” as ways to try to convince themselves that sprint doesn’t add anything to the game. its all matter of opinion. its so funny people trying to justify whether you should like it or not.
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. I already told you, MLG enlarged the pit for their Reach version. Ragnarok should have been enlarged, but obviously BTB maps can get away with not scaling up to sprint much more than smaller playlist maps can due to the fact that they are already inherently big. I cannot really speak to pitfall, as I never played it.
> >
> > 2. Yes I can link map enlargement to sprint. The fact that you are trying to argue against this very basic logic, which has been confirmed by Bungie themselves is honestly quite baffling. If you cannot see that exact ports of maps like wizard, midship and guardian would not work with sprint(without being stretched out) because of the distance of map objects in comparison to weapon kill times than I don’t really know what to say to you. You can’t make a map in which players can sprint between all cover before another player can possibly kill them. It would play horrifically.
>
>
> What MLG did is irrelevant to me when 343 Industries didn’t touch the proportions of that map for Halo 4 and it still played really well, to be frank. And the bolded is exactly what I’m talking about with this little issue of evidence. You don’t like to present any. Here you’ve got this claim, but you’re just not going to show me the evidence. You’re just going to expect me to trust your integrity, anecdotes, and map-editing experience and insult me and fling ad hominem attacks at my arguments if I don’t. This is getting silly. I understand that you created maps in Forge. I understand that you think you have a complete and full mathematical and categorical understanding of each game mechanic, how it interacts with another, and how to build maps around it, but you cannot speak for the actual game developers with your own design philosophies. You can talk logic at me all you want - I’ve already told you that I understand what you’re saying in theory - but that’s not what I’m looking for at all here. I just don’t care that some amateur Forge map designer thinks that building maps entirely based on the sprinting movement speed is necessary for a good map, because that kind of evidence is absolutely as subjective as it gets.

Im not going to get into an arguement over who knows Halo and Halo map design better between 343 and MLG. That’s a matter of opinion and im going to assume something we would have to agree to disagree on. With that being said however, you cannot just say “well 343 thinks this so that’s what correct and everyone else is irrelevant”. They made a Halo game that couldn’t stay in the XBL top 10 despite having a player base of 8million people. They also removed half the mechanics they introduced in H4 for H5. Obviously they are not the shining pillar of excellence when it comes to Halo multiplayer design. I respect a lot of the things they do, but I also think MLG knows how to make a Halo map. (This coming from someone who had multiple 50s in H3 and maybe 50 MLG playlist games played).

Im very sorry that I don’t have pages of bookmarks on my laptop saved in regards to Halo. Bungie, unlike 343 regulatory participated in their own forums. They were very open about having discussions regarding map design in their optimatch forum.

In the end, only a fool would say sprint does not effect map design. It’s one of the biggest arguements against removing sprint and against a classic playlist. The fact that all the maps are already designed for it. If sprint did not effect map design you could just toggle it off and have a perfectly fine classic playlist. Unfortunately it is not that simple. I guarantee you, if there is a H5 classic playlist it’s going to be made up almost entirely of forge maps because the default maps are not made for no sprint gameplay.

193

lol, someone said “i love how the numbers change when you make it a fair poll” less people go on the MCC forums than were in the original poll, and 80% of those people go on because they want to complain. Not a fair poll at all.

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> 2535445630236759;193:
> lol, someone said “i love how the numbers change when you make it a fair poll” less people go on the MCC forums than were in the original poll, and 80% of those people go on because they want to complain. Not a fair poll at all.

EXCATLY RIGHT… majority of the people go on the internet to complain and troll, plain and simple. that is why it seems like so many hate stuff cause that is why the go online, to complain.

195

Also, benefits of sprint allow for more dynamic gameplay. Abilities like ground pound and charge simply wouldn’t work without sprint. And abiltys like those are what make a game more dynamic. When you have more options than “shoot” and “throw grenade” it takes more planning and more strategy to fight. For those of you who don’t like sprint, just don’t sprint. TBH, in halo 5 guardians, sprint doesn’t even help in a fight. You win much more often when playing conservatively and not sprinting that much. But having that option allows you to get places you need to go faster. Plus, adding sprint doesn’t mean you simply have to make the maps larger. Thats not how it works. If the maps were just up scaled, it would lead to large hallways with absolutely no cover. Now, i’m only going to type this once and leave it at that because i know the first person to agnolage this comment will say “lol, nope. Ur an idot wit no tatse, git uot u 343 fanboy. Halo is 4 big kids.” so i’m not going to waste my time explaining more.

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> 2717573882290994;165:
> . Does No mean “I don’t want Sprint”, or does it mean “No, it shouldn’t be removed”?

I asked this question and got no answer. Poll is not clear

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> 2535440955887524;178:
> > 2533274816788253;175:
> > > 2535440955887524;174:
> > > I wish pro sprint people could come up with decent rebuttals. Or at the very least have a baseline understanding of all aspects and effects of sprint. It would atleast make the forums more interesting.
> > >
> > > Atleast when we used to argue things like BR vs AR spawns, I disagreed with AR spawns but a lot of people that did like AR spawns actually understood the effects of both sides and could form coherent thoughts.
> > >
> > > “I like it”
> > >
> > > Well, Id like crystal -Yoink!- if I had no understanding of the negatives it comes with and only saw the immediate effect.
> >
> >
> >
> > well if the players against sprint weren’t so blind sided… they hate it so refuse to accept any answer from players who like it and even come up with stuff like oh you aren’t “moving faster with sprint” as ways to try to convince themselves that sprint doesn’t add anything to the game. its all matter of opinion. its so funny people trying to justify whether you should like it or not.
>
>
> It is a matter of opinion. Unfortunately most people don’t understand all the facts so their opinion is uneducated.
>
> If someone can write up all the effects sprint has on map design and why they like what it does…cool. I hope they have fun with H5.
>
> The problem is, I haven’t seen this. Ever.

I’m working on a technical analysis of sprint. Still in the research and planning phase and I don’t have a ton of spare time, but its coming. Eventually.

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> 2533274809687497;196:
> > 2717573882290994;165:
> > . Does No mean “I don’t want Sprint”, or does it mean “No, it shouldn’t be removed”?
>
>
> I asked this question and got no answer. Poll is not clear

I take my Sprint voting very seriously. The poll should’ve been more clear because when no Sprint wins, the opposing side will be able to argue that the poll was unclear :wink:

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> 2535440955887524;192:
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> > > > > > 2533274806352868;180:
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> > > > > > > > 2533274806352868;173:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274961993641;166:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 2535440955887524;184:
> > > > > > 2533274806352868;181:
> > > > > > > 2535440955887524;178:
> > > > > > > > 2533274816788253;175:
> > > > > > > > > 2535440955887524;174:
> > > > > > > > > I wish pro sprint people could come up with decent rebuttals. Or at the very least have a baseline understanding of all aspects and effects of sprint. It would atleast make the forums more interesting.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Atleast when we used to argue things like BR vs AR spawns, I disagreed with AR spawns but a lot of people that did like AR spawns actually understood the effects of both sides and could form coherent thoughts.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > “I like it”
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Well, Id like crystal -Yoink!- if I had no understanding of the negatives it comes with and only saw the immediate effect.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > well if the players against sprint weren’t so blind sided… they hate it so refuse to accept any answer from players who like it and even come up with stuff like oh you aren’t “moving faster with sprint” as ways to try to convince themselves that sprint doesn’t add anything to the game. its all matter of opinion. its so funny people trying to justify whether you should like it or not.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 1. I already told you, MLG enlarged the pit for their Reach version. Ragnarok should have been enlarged, but obviously BTB maps can get away with not scaling up to sprint much more than smaller playlist maps can due to the fact that they are already inherently big. I cannot really speak to pitfall, as I never played it.
> > >
> > > 2. Yes I can link map enlargement to sprint. The fact that you are trying to argue against this very basic logic, which has been confirmed by Bungie themselves is honestly quite baffling. If you cannot see that exact ports of maps like wizard, midship and guardian would not work with sprint(without being stretched out) because of the distance of map objects in comparison to weapon kill times than I don’t really know what to say to you. You can’t make a map in which players can sprint between all cover before another player can possibly kill them. It would play horrifically.
> >
> >
> >
> > What MLG did is irrelevant to me when 343 Industries didn’t touch the proportions of that map for Halo 4 and it still played really well, to be frank. And the bolded is exactly what I’m talking about with this little issue of evidence. You don’t like to present any. Here you’ve got this claim, but you’re just not going to show me the evidence. You’re just going to expect me to trust your integrity, anecdotes, and map-editing experience and insult me and fling ad hominem attacks at my arguments if I don’t. This is getting silly. I understand that you created maps in Forge. I understand that you think you have a complete and full mathematical and categorical understanding of each game mechanic, how it interacts with another, and how to build maps around it, but you cannot speak for the actual game developers with your own design philosophies. You can talk logic at me all you want - I’ve already told you that I understand what you’re saying in theory - but that’s not what I’m looking for at all here. I just don’t care that some amateur Forge map designer thinks that building maps entirely based on the sprinting movement speed is necessary for a good map, because that kind of evidence is absolutely as subjective as it gets.
>
>
> Im not going to get into an arguement over who knows Halo and Halo map design better between 343 and MLG. That’s a matter of opinion and im going to assume something we would have to agree to disagree on. With that being said however, you cannot just say “well 343 thinks this so that’s what correct and everyone else is irrelevant”. They made a Halo game that couldn’t stay in the XBL top 10 despite having a player base of 8million people. They also removed half the mechanics they introduced in H4 for H5. Obviously they are not the shining pillar of excellence when it comes to Halo multiplayer design. I respect a lot of the things they do, but I also think MLG knows how to make a Halo map. (This coming from someone who had multiple 50s in H3 and maybe 50 MLG playlist games played).
>
> Im very sorry that I don’t have pages of bookmarks on my laptop saved in regards to Halo. Bungie, unlike 343 regulatory participated in their own forums. They were very open about having discussions regarding map design in their optimatch forum.
>
> In the end, only a fool would say sprint does not effect map design. It’s one of the biggest arguements against removing sprint and against a classic playlist. The fact that all the maps are already designed for it. If sprint did not effect map design you could just toggle it off and have a perfectly fine classic playlist. Unfortunately it is not that simple. I guarantee you, if there is a H5 classic playlist it’s going to be made up almost entirely of forge maps because the default maps are not made for no sprint gameplay.

MLG definitely understands a certain niche of Halo and map design better than 343 Industries, but that’s mostly because they want all of their games to play out in a specific way. To get a specific result, you have to build something specifically. That’s irrelevant here, because I’m talking in broader terms about the sprint mechanic’s place in the Halo sandbox in general. Notice how most Matchmaking games do not take place in MLG-constructed arenas, but on 343 Industries’ battlefields. In fact, MLG maps typically either aren’t seen in War Games, or are restricted to an MLG playlist exclusively.

So, yes, I could hypothetically say, “well 343 thinks this so that’s what correct and everyone else is irrelevant”. I didn’t say that and I’m not going to say that, but I could, based on the idea that most matches people play are taking place in 343 Industries-constructed maps. That alone means that their design philosophies inherently matter more than anyone else’s - they are the ones designing these spaces. Halo 4’s performance is a whole different debate and one I won’t get into here (except to say that expecting a 2012 game from a fledgling studio in an oversaturated shooter industry to perform similarly to a 2007 game whose developers had two prior installments of experience and iteration is pure madness) - but it’s also irrelevant because, again, you will have a hard time linking Halo 4’s population statistics directly to the sprint mechanic. And we are talking about the sprint mechanic, after all.

You’ll forgive me for taking what you’re saying with a grain of salt if you can’t present any actual evidence, right? Like I said, I believe what you’re saying makes sense in theory, but I also think that Halo is much more than the sprint mechanic. I don’t think that players are sprinting around the maps ninety percent of the time, which is what anti-sprint arguments make it sound like. I think the developers understand that separating a faster movement mode from combat inherently means that engagements and firefights will actually be taking place at base movement speed - and that’s what matters. This part is just my opinion, admittedly, but since you called me a fool, I’m just going to say that I think you’re silly for acting as if sprint is the only mechanic in Halo that matters to map design.

200

> 2717573882290994;198:
> > 2533274809687497;196:
> > > 2717573882290994;165:
> > > . Does No mean “I don’t want Sprint”, or does it mean “No, it shouldn’t be removed”?
> >
> >
> >
> > I asked this question and got no answer. Poll is not clear
>
>
> I take my Sprint voting very seriously. The poll should’ve been more clear because when no Sprint wins, the opposing side will be able to argue that the poll was unclear :wink:

Can work both ways, I actually like sprint since I think it adds another dynamic to Halo. But to each their own. I will play it both ways (hope they add a classical playlist and new mechanics playlist just as sprint is toggle in customs in order to cater towards the people that don’t like it as well. The greater the population is the better.