Another look at JIP

Cancel any obligations you have for the day. This is probably going to get lengthy.

343 probably made this decision in order to lessen the impact of the quitting issue. I’m sure everyone could agree with that. There is probably second motive here of “Let’s get players into games at lightspeed”. Which will no doubt please the CoD fanatics. And whatever, business is business.

Before getting to the matter at hand I will say this… Quitting CAN be an issue. Personally I don’t care because (as any good player will tell you) for me, their team has only two people to kill and we have four. Typically I’m playing against unorganized randoms who travel solo which makes winning a walk in the park. If you out DMR them one by one it’s in the bag. The quitting doesn’t affect them either. If they were smart, they would travel in a group and the win would be simple. It’s not the games fault that they all wandered off by themselves.

That being said, this does not apply to all game modes. This is somewhat of a small issue in team slayer. However, a problem nonetheless. In almost every other playlist you have some kind of objective. This is where the real quitting issue shows its face. Picture BTB CTF on hemorrhage, 8 vs 3. Who’s going to win that one? A rhetorical question by the way.

So the remedy seems obvious right? Let people join mid game. Well on paper, I’m sure that seems logical. But in practice, this is what’s going to happen. We will recycle the last scenario for this example. So the game has about 3-3 1/2 to 4 minutes left and you are losing. So about 2-3 guys jump ship because they see it’s a lost cause. And another two people quit right after that because they don’t want to play without a full roster especially when this battle has basically been lost. Who knows how long it will take for new players to get in. It’s too late for last minute heroics especially down 3 guys. They bail. Now it’s 8v3. So in a world where this join in progress in lightning quick, you manage to get 4 guys in almost immediately. Now you are only down one guy and there is 3 minutes left. That’s enough time to get a cap and tie things up. Again, in theory yes. In practice, no. Why? Because these new players do not have a stake in the outcome. They don’t care. Why should they? All they want to do is ride out the last of this match and start a fresh one. So they customize their loadouts a little and then spawn in a minute later. They just run around aimlessly, without a care in the world. With the news of no 1-50 (and judging by what frank said, I assume nothing even that similar) people have no reason whatsoever to give a single -Yoink- what happens. Especially when they JUST joined. Because it won’t affect them negatively at all. Hell, if it did, THAT would be unfair. So your team was dismantled by rage quiters and replaced by people who aren’t given a reason to care about the outcome.

I think the idea of JIP has patched one hole and created another. I mean really, what’s better? A team missing over half it’s players, or over half the team not giving a -Yoink-. I guess time will tell.

The last thing I want to touch on is the map quit issue that is likely to be introduced. For those of you like me who played CoD once upon a time (or still do) will know exactly what I’m talking about. You pop in MW2. Go to XBL lobby and hit find game. You get sucked into Derail against your will. That map is terrible. So what do you do? Quit of course. You back out and try again. Let’s say you have the fortune of being in the lobby while the vote is taking place. You hate the map that people are voting for…you back out of course. For you, this is great. You are never forced to play a map you don’t like. However, for everyone else it can be a pain. Their team keeps losing people over and over. Never at full strength. And even if they do finally get a new team guess what? Yep the same scenario described earlier plays out. They don’t care how the game finishes. They just showed up.

Just a thought. A very long one at that. I’m not arrogant enough to believe that this post is going to change anything, but perhaps by highlighting some scenarios about where it can go wrong might spark ideas or solutions on how to tweak their system to address the common problem areas when using the JIP system. I have faith that it will be much more robust and balanced than CoD’s JIP system. But it never hurts to point these things out.

I know that I for one DON’T want to be joining games minutes before the end without any hope of winning. If there’s an option then people who care about winning will opt not to join mid game. Those that do join mid game will be those who don’t care about winning, losing or quiting, further strengthening your argument where JIP doesn’t actually solve a problem. There will be odd exceptions but it’s not a solution.

In fact there is only 1 benefit to JIP and it is a big one. Letting friends join. If your team is down, who else would you trust to come in a help turn the tide, well a friend of course.

JIP should be used mainly for inviting friends in to games where teammates have quit (I@m still pondering over the option of inviting a friend after you booted someone, as this creates a team betrayal fest when you want a friend in?), if not exclusively.

I think this could work, as long as 343 implement 3 things into the game. First off, have a toggle in the menu so you can switch this feature off, therefore it would be completely optional. Now to your next point, you say that people who join the game won’t care, fair enough. But how is that worse than no player at all, i’m sure the empty slot on your team will care a hell of a lot if you win or not. If anything they will maybe help get a few kills, back you up, or at least distract the enemy a little, it’s almost 100% guaranteed that that player will help your team more than the empty slot. As long as they still implement a quit ban, or some kind of quit deterrent, i think it’s a system that will work quite well.

Join In Progress + Peer to Peer Host = Blackscreens for Everyone!

I hope there is a way or a toggle to not join a session in progress. First I will always quit because I want a fresh new game not some already done game where there is no way to win and get stuck with a bunch of noob.

The whole 1-50 boosting/buying argument Frankie used is pretty bogus by the way. Let’s put it this way. Say you bring 1-50 back. With one change. You have to defend your title. You don’t hit 50 and stay there. You have to maintain a 50. This eliminates buying accounts. And boosting in halo wasn’t exactly an easy feat. Plus these kids who boost typically suck. They would have to be boosting constantly. Which DRAMATICALLY increases their odds of getting caught and banned. Not to mention that it would be a huge pain and as a result, it would significantly reduce boosting. This would strengthen the desire to win EVERY match. Unfortunately the JIP would screw that over. So I understand that the 1-50 thing was probably scraped because it is just absolutely incompatible with a JIP system. To me, this is another sign that we will get a Reach/CoD style ranking system. Ramble ramble ramble. At this point, it seems JIP is (and has already been) breaking more than it’s hoping to fix. We’ll see when it comes out.

Well, as well as this post is constructed (kudos to you OP for not flaming 343i and actually displaying your arguments in a polite manner) there is one thing I feel that was left out.

Sure, players can quit and join in progress but what if there is still a penalty (a big one not just losing your credits for the match) for quitting?

Say after three quits you can’t enter a match for five minutes or something. This punishment might not work because I don’t know if the game can distinguish from a boot, quit or lost connection. But some sort of incentive for players not to quit. Then the problem of quitting players should only be a fraction higher than it currently is.

Now as for your other arguments (new players joining matches and not caring, etc) there really is no counter-argument. I’m not going to say I hate the idea of JIP but I’m not a fan. I guess we’ll see how it turns out in the retail version.

Join-in-progress should be a matchmaking preference. For example, if you’ve just booted up the game, a player should get put into a full match before it starts. The odds of them being tossed into an in-progress game increase the more times that player re-enters matchmaking, until they are completely without the crutch preventing them from being placed into games in progress. If the same player turns off their Xbox and starts the next day, the system would start over again.

It would be stupid to assume that this would solve every problem with join-in-progress, but it would keep players from being desensitized to losing (ala Call of Duty) by making sure that players who are playing their first or second (maybe even up to 15th) match of the day don’t get tossed into an 86-31 BTB Slayer match.

> Join-in-progress should be a matchmaking preference. For example, if you’ve just booted up the game, a player should get put into a full match before it starts. The odds of them being tossed into an in-progress game increase the more times that player re-enters matchmaking, until they are completely without the crutch preventing them from being placed into games in progress. If the same player turns off their Xbox and starts the next day, the system would start over again.
>
> It would be stupid to assume that this would solve every problem with join-in-progress, but it would keep players from being desensitized to losing (ala Call of Duty) by making sure that players who are playing their first or second (maybe even up to 15th) match of the day don’t get tossed into an 86-31 BTB Slayer match.

You are still at the mercy of JIP. The scenarios I layed out would still be occuring within your team. I’m not saying that this whole thing is game breaking. I’m not even saying that this is going to be all that common. All I’m saying is that it is inevitably going to be happening. The rate at which it happens to you, is just going to come down to dumb luck. I am not in favor of JIP as we have seen it in other games. I’m sure it can be refined and made to work but I’m not sure if completely replacing the current system is the best solution to the quit problem. Improving what we have seems like a far better option than having to deal with nonstop host migration.

> > Join-in-progress should be a matchmaking preference. For example, if you’ve just booted up the game, a player should get put into a full match before it starts. The odds of them being tossed into an in-progress game increase the more times that player re-enters matchmaking, until they are completely without the crutch preventing them from being placed into games in progress. If the same player turns off their Xbox and starts the next day, the system would start over again.
> >
> > It would be stupid to assume that this would solve every problem with join-in-progress, but it would keep players from being desensitized to losing (ala Call of Duty) by making sure that players who are playing their first or second (maybe even up to 15th) match of the day don’t get tossed into an 86-31 BTB Slayer match.
>
> You are still at the mercy of JIP. The scenarios I layed out would still be occuring within your team. I’m not saying that this whole thing is game breaking. I’m not even saying that this is going to be all that common. All I’m saying is that it is inevitably going to be happening. The rate at which it happens to you, is just going to come down to dumb luck. I am not in favor of JIP as we have seen it in other games. I’m sure it can be refined and made to work but I’m not sure if completely replacing the current system is the best solution to the quit problem. Improving what we have seems like a far better option than having to deal with nonstop host migration.

I get that completely, but a lot of my friends are annoyed with Call of Duty because of Join in Progress, and since 343i is implementing it (and there is little anyone here could do to change their minds) I think finding some sort of matchmaking preference to limit it would be the best option 343 might consider. I like the system we’ve always had better, but since things are changing regardless, I’d like any change to be executed as well as 343 possibly can

If Halo 4 has Ranked and Social sections in Matchmaking, it would make sense to enable the JIP only for Social matches, similarly to what Gears of War 3 does now.

> If Halo 4 has Ranked and Social sections in Matchmaking, it would make sense to enable the JIP only for Social matches, similarly to what Gears of War 3 does now.

Agree 100%

I guess I’m still stuck in the mindset of Reach. Where there is no ranked and social separation. Still if frank is saying that there is no 1-50 or even hinting that their might be something similar, then I can’t see them having two separate playlist categories like that. Ultimately it’s going to come down one of two possibilities. Either they will have ranked and social playlists or they won’t. If they do, then I imagine they will be using a system like I described where you must maintain your rank to keep it. Based on what frank said, I can’t see it happening any other way. In ranked I imagine there would be no JIP but in social their would be. Or it will end up like reach did. With just one long list of game types and everyone is subject to JIP. Who knows. We need this question to hit the 343 ClarityCast lol