An effective utility weapon

This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not call out individuals. This includes forum members, moderators, administrators, and non-forum members.

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

There needs to be one, effective, utility weapon for Halo: XB1. It should have no bloom, no bullet spread, (even if they decide to bring back the BR) and be difficult to use. It must have a relatively fast kill-time.

I’m not going to suggest bringing back the CE Pistol, for the sandbox in the next Halo game won’t allow for it to be balanced, but so far it was the best utility weapon we have had, and I think there is a lot we can learn from it.

In CE, the pistol killed in three shots. “That is overpowered though!” noob [CLASSIFIED] says. What he doesn’t understand, though, is that during high level gameplay, it takes many, many shots in a pistol battle to get a kill. This is with good strafing techniques and etc, though. What about in the average level of gameplay? Is the CE pistol overpowered? The answer is no, simply because the average player isn’t able to 3 shot due to difficulty of the gun and bad aim. There’s only one more scenario to play out now, and that’s the good player going against the less skilled one. In this scenario, the good player can take down the bad one in 3-6 shots because the less skilled one doesn’t know about strafing, has bad aim, and the good player is the opposite.

This, my friends, is called a skill-gap. It’s what we need in Halo XB1. Not just for hardcore competitive players, but for longevity. Like I said before, I don’t think bringing back the CE pistol is the right move. But with an effective, hard to use, utility weapon, a skillgap can be created which will improve the game.

Franky is anything but a noob.

You might want to rephrase that part of your post.

with the way halo has developed i think a 0.6-0.8 peak kill time would be off-putting for certain players. however in regards to bullet spread i agree 100%.

due to how console fps has developed i feel there will be higher levels of aim assist and bullet magnetism than in CE no matter what, so i think a good compromise is a kill time of 1-1.3 seconds to compensate for the AA and mag.

however random error is a factor that definitely needs to heavily recede in future titles, as that is the core issue for my contempt with halo 4.

> Franky is anything but a noob.

Frankie is a self-professing bad Halo player. He admitted to it back when he used to write for Official Xbox Magazine. And I’m sure he still is.

But it depends on if you define noob as being bad at a game or as being immature and childish.

Agreed 100%. This utility weapon is what would make or break the game’s potential to be played at a competitive level. From professional to casual, everyone wants to be better at the game than their opponent and be able to prove it.

The thing that makes a weapon skillful is not how fast on average you can kill with it. It is how hard it is to aim with. A gun that is hard to aim with accomplishes the following effect: The shortest possible killtime is rarely reached and the average killtime is much longer. The best example out there is the UNSC sniper rifle while noscoping. You can instantly kill with it, but people only rarely get the first noscope. So in team snipers, people can unload entire clips on eachother without hitting anything, resulting in a long average killtime. This can get boring, however, so there is a balance that needs to be found.

So what the utility weapon needs to have is a fast killtime, and a longer average killtime. The difference between the two needs to be very noticeable, but not too big.

The weapon in Halo’s history that has best been able to accomplish this is the Halo 2 Battle Rifle in my opinion. The H2 BR fired in 3-round bursts that did not spread out randomly or upward. The bursts instead came out slowly; had a spread in time. This made it hard to have perfect aim with, since you needed to keep your reticle on the target for the entire duration of the burst. The Halo 2 BR killed in 12 bullets, or 4 perfectly hit bursts. This created an easy and obvious difference in shortest vs. average killtimes; It was very easy to miss a single bullet in one of four bursts, so not a lot of kills killed in four bursts. The average shots required to kill was five. But the shortest possible killtime was in 4 bursts.

Halo 2 also had an unintentional game mechanic, a glitch, that ended up increasing the skillgap even further. I’m talking about button combos. They allowed you to fire two bursts immediately after eachother if you pressed B and X in between your shots. The combo needed to be timed perfectly and required you to take your thumb off the aiming stick. Needless to say, “quad shotting”, firing two BXR shots twice in a row, while still hitting your opponent, was extremely difficult to perform. They rewarded those who knew of the combos and who were able to pull them off with almost instant killtimes.

For Halo 5, we obviously can’t return to button glitches since that won’t be accepted these days. (Unless 343i found something creative that works the same, that’d be cool!)
However, we can reintroduce the Halo 2 BR as a utility weapon. It is a logical evolution from Halo 4 since the BR is the main weapon for Halo 4 now. Plus, it is a tried and true model. The only thing that needs to change is the burst; again: do not give it an upward/random spread. Instead, give it a large spread in burst time so you need to keep your aim on your target for longer.

Personally I like the way Halo 4 has tried to eliminate the idea of the one-gun-to-rule-them-all approach. It’s not perfect, but with a few minor adjustments it can be truly balanced. Having one utility weapon such as the Halo CE Magnum in the overall game would simply invalidate all other weapons in the sandbox, it’d completely remove variety of gameplay. I’m for balance, but I don’t think we should boil the game down to bare bones to get it, it removes so much of the meta.

> Personally I like the way Halo 4 has tried to eliminate the idea of the one-gun-to-rule-them-all approach. It’s not perfect, but with a few minor adjustments it can be truly balanced. Having one utility weapon such as the Halo CE Magnum in the overall game would simply invalidate all other weapons in the sandbox, it’d completely remove variety of gameplay. I’m for balance, but I don’t think we should boil the game down to bare bones to get it, it removes so much of the meta.

I’d prefer if there were only one utility weapon that everyone would need to learn to use (e.g. The BR). That weapon would be the one people spawn with in ‘Team BRs’ gametypes. What i’m saying is that i would like to see personal loadouts disappear.

Halo 4 did a surprisingly good job in balancing the main rifles, but the DMR, scoped LR, and carbine are simply too easy to kill with the way they are now in my opinion. Players with good aim (not necessarily professionals) will get the fastest killtime out of those weapons almost every time.

If 343i decides to bring back personal loadouts, ALL weapons need to be as hard to use as the chosen utility weapon. All weapons need a high skillgap. And even more; each weapon needs to feel unique and be better at a different range. This is extremely difficult if not impossible to balance. Why? Because the way weapons are balanced in Halo 4 is that weapons are easier to use in their intended range. A DMR gets easy long range kills because of its good scope. So DMRs will get an easier 5 shot than for example a carbine. The effect is that every weapon will be effectively easy to use at a certain range. Which basically means free kills by those that don’t necessarily have very good aim. As long as they fight at their weapons’ intended range, they will be able to do quite well in a game, even if they are only average. Because of how the weapons are designed, choosing one in your loadout inherently forces you to the niche that weapon performs best in. And then you have to depend on lady luck and hope that all encounters will happen in your chosen weapon’s optimal niche. Sure, you can pick your battles and choose the right weapon for a certain map… But you can’t force all encounters in your favor this way.

Getting rid of the loadout system gets rid of all of these problems simultaneously. The old system is simple and fun. Don’t get me wrong; I would love to see more skillful versions of the DMR, LR and carbine return to the game. But they would be placed on the map. Their impact would be the biggest on AR starts gametypes, since everyone will want to choose a utility weapon over their AR. But they will also be useful in BR start gametypes, for example picking up a DMR/LR in BTB. Or a Carbine on CQC maps.

> > I’d prefer if there were only one utility weapon that everyone would need to learn to use (e.g. The BR). That weapon would be the one people spawn with in ‘Team BRs’ gametypes. What i’m saying is that i would like to see personal loadouts disappear.
>
> And why can’t this be a separate game variant or a separate playlist? Having loadouts eliminates the BR starts vs AR starts ordeal. During my time in Halo 3 or Reach people usually vote for BRs or DMR starts because simply people who get the precision weapons ended up being advantageous. The dislike for AR starts also carried onto halo 4 with Legendary Slayer. As for you second paragraph what does that have to do with anything ? It is the same away for any game , but the reason the weapons are “easy to kill with” is because of 343 decided to put plenty of bullet magnesium and aim assist.
>
> As for weapons being easier to use in halo 4 because they were designed to be easier in their intended range , well no duh. It was the same way in pretty much in every FPS in existence , the BR in halo 3 is easier to use at mid range… its intended range , so was the AR , shotgun , maular , PP , CC , pretty much every weapon was easier to use at their intended range. Making them map picks is not going to change anything besides bring back old complaints of having people getting easily killed while playing AR starts like there was in halo 3 or maybe legendary slayer.

As long as utility means, “If I position myself right against another weapon, I’m fine”, and not, “Easy Mode/Only weapon worth having at all times”, I’m fine.

I don’t want a repeat where I’m only using a gun because if I used anything other than that weapon and the power weapons, my stats drop like a rock. At that point, it isn’t skillful. It’s just the easy route.

Hmmm.

It’s hard to determine what the utility weapon in this game is when we have three weapons that function good at close range, three that function decent at medium range, and two that function very well at long range.

A utility weapon isn’t necessarily a weapon that is decent at all ranges, but rather one that is decent in all situations. Something that should be remembered but seems to be forgotten.

As much as I don’t want to endorse BR fanboyism, it makes for a decent utility weapon if designed properly. Make it pinpoint accurate, make the time between bullets in a burst longer, and perhaps make it projectile or give it vertical recoil.

Still doesn’t leave much in the way of area denial, but I suppose we have frags for that.

> > > I’d prefer if there were only one utility weapon that everyone would need to learn to use (e.g. The BR). That weapon would be the one people spawn with in ‘Team BRs’ gametypes. What i’m saying is that i would like to see personal loadouts disappear.
> >
> > And why can’t this be a separate game variant or a separate playlist? Having loadouts eliminates the BR starts vs AR starts ordeal. During my time in Halo 3 or Reach people usually vote for BRs or DMR starts because simply people who get the precision weapons ended up being advantageous. The dislike for AR starts also carried onto halo 4 with Legendary Slayer. As for you second paragraph what does that have to do with anything ? It is the same away for any game , but the reason the weapons are “easy to kill with” is because of 343 decided to put plenty of bullet magnesium and aim assist.
> >
> > As for weapons being easier to use in halo 4 because they were designed to be easier in their intended range , well no duh. It was the same way in pretty much in every FPS in existence , the BR in halo 3 is easier to use at mid range… its intended range , so was the AR , shotgun , maular , PP , CC , pretty much every weapon was easier to use at their intended range. Making them map picks is not going to change anything besides bring back old complaints of having people getting easily killed while playing AR starts like there was in halo 3 or maybe legendary slayer.
>
> Halo must offer a single system that goes for all playlists. If we give the competitive (read: ranked) playlists BR starts only and the social playlists custom loadouts, then we will separate the community, like now in Halo 4. This separation is really bad for the longevity of the game because social players will never be inclined to try their luck in the competitive playlists if they first have to adjust to different settings, and for other reasons.
>
> So in my opinion, we either return to equal starts, or we continue with custom loadouts. If we want to continue with custom loadouts, we must balance them first for competitive multiplayer since we want a homogenous experience: magnum secondaries only, no armor abilities, frag grenades only, no perks. So the only thing that is really able to be balanced for loadouts, if we base ourselves off what happened in Halo 4, are the primary weapons. We’d end up with a system that is in between fair, equal starts and ultimate customisation. A system that does neither of them properly. So I would invest heavily in one side; the equal starts side. Which is why i’m advocating the return of AR-BR starts.
>
> And errm yes, i’m fully aware of how you are ‘helpless’ if you don’t have a precision rifle in AR starts. I’ve been frustrated by it too in Halo 3. There was a huge emphasis on finding a BR because it dominated the AR, even in close range. On the other hand, when we look at Legendary Slayer, we see a different effect. H4’s AR is more effective than the BR at close range and sometimes even medium range, because it has been balanced in the context of custom loadouts: for custom loadouts, the AR needs to be a valid choice over the BR, or nobody will choose it. Because the AR is so powerful, few go out of their way to actually picking up the BR. Because once you have your BR, you have a hard time killing an AR player, even at medium range. And when you die, you lose it again. It simply wasn’t worth picking up and thus it turned into an AR game.
>
> So, for our universal AR starts gametype for Halo 5, a fine balance must be struck between being able to defend yourself from spawn, and making it rewarding to go out of your way to pick up a precision rifle. And I think this is one of the few things Halo Reach did a really great job at. The Reach AR was weak compared to the DMR, even at very close ranges since you could spam the DMR for fast kills. You really wanted to pick up a DMR to win. Despite us having a weak primary, Bungie gave us a powerful secondary , the pistol, which could effectively compete with the DMR at all ranges except long range. The Reach pistol allowed you to engage other players at all ranges from spawn, which makes it resemble BR starts more. It potentially had the fastest killtime, however was very difficult to use because of its reticle and extensive bloom. Sure, you COULD run around with a pistol the entire match, but there’s no way you could outpistol DMR wielders every time. In this way, Reach made AR starts fun, because you were never helpless and it was still well worth picking up the utility weapon.
>
> And the utility weapon itsself needs to be useable at all ranges, that’s the point of having one. You want it so you never get an encounter where you feel entirely helpless. And if everyone uses it, that’s not a bad thing, that’s something that brings consistency to the game. H5 would have the pistol as a utility weapon (powerful but shallow clip) off spawn, and the BR as a better utility weapon as a pickup (or on spawn in BR starts).
>
> Though I agree you’re right, the only way of balancing the single shot primary rifles is by making some easier to use in their niche than others. However, H4 exaggerates this and in case of the DMR, it’s just easy for all ranges except really close range. 343i needs to make them more difficult to use in general. Or experiment with lowering bullet damage with range as an extra balancing mechanic, while keeping all rifles difficult to use. In any case, balancing will be easier in a non-custom loadouts context.

Shut your face face hole, OP.
Frankie & I both have the same favourite candy bar, so he’s good in my book. Curly Wurly’s rock!!

~ Duck.

P.s. He really is quite bad at anything that isn’t SWAT in all fairness.

>

You aren’t “separating” anyone and wouldn’t you be separating the community by forcing everyone you play with the same weapon all the time? Having a separate playlist is providing additional gameplay options for others that is all. Why do they need to
if they don’t want to ? If they want to try their luck they will try their luck when they want to, making everyone start out the same way as a reason to make social players play competitive settings is really silly. All you really going to do is bring back the AR vs BR starts argument. If the competitive community wants equal starts they have the freedom to do it and from my knowledge Legendary BRs does a fine job at that.

If you noticed that Legendary slayer was first introduced it was ARs only while it didn’t have any secondaries to many people the AR couldn’t necessarily compete with the BR . Even if there was pistols it will not save nor help you a lot of the time even the halo reach pistol get outclassed by a DMR user in a lot of the engagements because it was harder to use. So no it was not fun to a lot of people. Either way people don’t like being at disadvantage when they spawn all the time .

If everyone is using the same weapon all the time why have multiple weapons in the first place? All you are doing is running the risk of making some weapons useless again like in halo 3 and reach. If having non weapon loadouts so apperantly makes balancing easier then the spiker, PR , SMG , CC, Pistol , AR , and mauler would have more use and/or wouldve been mre effective in there use , but they weren’t.

I always wanted a halo with both the three shot pistol and the Halo 2 style BR. I hope we get at least one of them back for Halo 5. Of course whatever it is, I want there to be one starting weapon or maybe two like Shotty-Snipes, BRs-ARs, ect. I don’t like custom loadouts.

> This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not call out individuals. This includes forum members, moderators, administrators, and non-forum members.
>
>
> *Original post. Click at your own discretion.
>
>
>
> There needs to be one, effective, utility weapon for Halo: XB1. It should have no bloom, no bullet spread, (even if they decide to bring back the BR) and be difficult to use. It must have a relatively fast kill-time.
>
> I’m not going to suggest bringing back the CE Pistol, for the sandbox in the next Halo game won’t allow for it to be balanced, but so far it was the best utility weapon we have had, and I think there is a lot we can learn from it.
>
> In CE, the pistol killed in three shots. “That is overpowered though!” noob [CLASSIFIED] says. What he doesn’t understand, though, is that during high level gameplay, it takes many, many shots in a pistol battle to get a kill. This is with good strafing techniques and etc, though. What about in the average level of gameplay? Is the CE pistol overpowered? The answer is no, simply because the average player isn’t able to 3 shot due to difficulty of the gun and bad aim. There’s only one more scenario to play out now, and that’s the good player going against the less skilled one. In this scenario, the good player can take down the bad one in 3-6 shots because the less skilled one doesn’t know about strafing, has bad aim, and the good player is the opposite.
>
> This, my friends, is called a skill-gap. It’s what we need in Halo XB1. Not just for hardcore competitive players, but for longevity. Like I said before, I don’t think bringing back the CE pistol is the right move. But with an effective, hard to use, utility weapon, a skillgap can be created which will improve the game.
>
>
>

It has now been beefed, but at launch, the covie carbine was considered a weak alternative. What people overlooked was that, even back then, it had the fastest overall kill time of the marksman rifles. But you had to connect with every shot.
That, my friend, is a skill gap.