Alt History: What if Xytan 'Jar Wattinree lived?

Lets do a alternate history what if scenario. What if Sangheilli Imperial Admiral Xytan 'Jar Wattinree never died in the NOVA bomb explosion in 2552?

How would this have affected the Great Schism that still continues as of 2558? Would he have replaced Thel 'Vadam as head of the Swords of Sanheilos? Would Jul 'Mdama have had the chance to rise to power or would Xytan crushed such ambitions before they ever flowered? Would he have actually joined Jul?

Do remember while Xytan still wished destruction upon humanity at his death he died rather early on in the Great Schism and if he had lived might have changed his tone in regards to humans, much like Thel did.

I think he would have allied with Jul’s Covenant or the Servants of Abiding Truth.

I think he would have rallied the Servants of Abiding Truth and Jul to his cause. If it weren’t for the destruction of his fleet, he would have had the strongest power base of any sangheili faction from the start of the schism, whereas Thel’s and Jul’s support was largely built up post Schism.

As for his stance on humans, he might have been able to temper it given proper scenarios, but I don’t think he’d be so easily swayed to be friends with us. The prophets putting him the pseudo-exile tells me he’s a very ambitious person, and "tentative peace’ probably wouldn’t cut it for him.

> 2533274964189700;3:
> I think he would have rallied the Servants of Abiding Truth and Jul to his cause. If it weren’t for the destruction of his fleet, he would have had the strongest power base of any sangheili faction from the start of the schism, whereas Thel’s and Jul’s support was largely built up post Schism.
>
> As for his stance on humans, he might have been able to temper it given proper scenarios, but I don’t think he’d be so easily swayed to be friends with us. The prophets putting him the pseudo-exile tells me he’s a very ambitious person, and "tentative peace’ probably wouldn’t cut it for him.

I agree - he wouldn’t have put himself under Jul’s authority. Also, if he did survive, I could see Jul approaching Xytan instead of the Servants of Abiding Truth, especially if he was already vocal about taking a stand against the Arbiter (which I am assuming he would for UrbaneRocket’s reasons). It would also probably A) prolong the Sangheili civil war without the boost from ONI and would probably force the UNSC and the Swords of Sanghelios into a stronger alliance earlier on as Xytan would be a rather immediate threat if he chose not to make peace.

There is a chance everything would be dead in 2555 regardless with the events of Hunters in the Dark. Unless he destroyed humanity before 2554.

That is aways a thought.

> 2533274836874363;5:
> There is a chance everything would be dead in 2555 regardless with the events of Hunters in the Dark. Unless he destroyed humanity before 2554.
>
> That is aways a thought.

So you think is Xytan lived it would have impeded Operation: FAR STORM? How so?

Looking back, that NOVA bomb acquired from reach sure seems like a silly plot element.

> 2533274825022855;6:
> > 2533274836874363;5:
> > There is a chance everything would be dead in 2555 regardless with the events of Hunters in the Dark. Unless he destroyed humanity before 2554.
> >
> > That is aways a thought.
>
>
> So you think is Xytan lived it would have impeded Operation: FAR STORM? How so?

Ok unless he destroyed Humanity before exactly before December 2553 or hinders then completely. (When the UNSC Rubicon was sent to the Ark.)
The Arks Monitor still gets ahold of a Human to use to activate the Halo Installations. Causing the whole events in the first place.

Xytan has both Humanity and the remaining covenant to face. So it wont be a snap and hes finished. So if Humanity does push back. And so does the Covenant. Then it could last awhile.

There is a possibility that none of the Covenant species. Who arnt reclaimers would discover the count down in time. Also how would they stop the countdown without Humans within the short time. And with a Human and Sanghelli war assuming its still happening. Halos might be a really unsafe place to be in general to research.

Assuming he killed all the humans he’s doomed.

So yea Xytan has just over a year to exterminate Humanity. If he fails then boom everything dies. And he doesnt know that everythings gonna die so he has no rush in 2552.

> 2533274964189700;7:
> Looking back, that NOVA bomb acquired from reach sure seems like a silly plot element.

Yeah its borderline limited that arguably the most brilliant Sangheili strategist alive would put a prototype weapon aboard his flagship in the middle of a war.

As for this thread. I think based on what we know about Xytan he’d side with Thel. ‘But he hates humans’. Does he though? He sends Voro with a token force to secure Onyx not because he thinks its important, but because he wanted to rid himself of a potential rival. If Onyx were so important he undoubtedly would have gone himself and sent Voro to deal with the Jiralhanae. Additionally Thel 'Vadam is one of the most renowned commanders within the Covenant with a proven track record of success rivaled probably only by Xytan himself. There’s likely a good amount of mutual respect between the two. Respect that low ranked plebs like Jul and Avu simply do not have.

Thel also likely has a large fleet, with the entirety of the Sangheili portion of the High Charity defense fleet under his control. Essentially the options here are Xytan siding with zealous ideals that have failed him before, or siding with the kaidon who single-handedly ended the war by killing both Tartarus and Truth avenging the High Council and millions of Sangheili. In Halo 3 we even hear Elites calling Chief Reclaimer. All Thel has to do is say ‘Yeah the Prophets lied about the Humans too, they are actually the inheritors of the Forerunners’ and he could probably get a lot of the religious nuts on board with a human alliance as well.

> 2533274807602068;9:
> > 2533274964189700;7:
> > Looking back, that NOVA bomb acquired from reach sure seems like a silly plot element.
>
>
> Yeah its borderline limited that arguably the most brilliant Sangheili strategist alive would put a prototype weapon aboard his flagship in the middle of a war.
>
> As for this thread. I think based on what we know about Xytan he’d side with Thel. ‘But he hates humans’. Does he though? He sends Voro with a token force to secure Onyx not because he thinks its important, but because he wanted to rid himself of a potential rival. If Onyx were so important he undoubtedly would have gone himself and sent Voro to deal with the Jiralhanae. Additionally Thel 'Vadam is one of the most renowned commanders within the Covenant with a proven track record of success rivaled probably only by Xytan himself. There’s likely a good amount of mutual respect between the two. Respect that low ranked plebs like Jul and Avu simply do not have.
>
> Thel also likely has a large fleet, with the entirety of the Sangheili portion of the High Charity defense fleet under his control. Essentially the options here are Xytan siding with zealous ideals that have failed him before, or siding with the kaidon who single-handedly ended the war by killing both Tartarus and Truth avenging the High Council and millions of Sangheili. In Halo 3 we even hear Elites calling Chief Reclaimer. All Thel has to do is say ‘Yeah the Prophets lied about the Humans too, they are actually the inheritors of the Forerunners’ and he could probably get a lot of the religious nuts on board with a human alliance as well.

Well, here’s a couple things to keep in mind when you’re talking about Xytan:

When he died, he still believed in the Great Journey, and by extension, believed Humans were vermin that needed to be eradicated.

Thel was also stripped of rank and disgraced after his failure at Installation 04. So assuming Xytan knew of his service record, he’d probably think his failure out-weights his triumphs. So whether of not there’s mutual respect between the two remains to be seen.

Basically, this argument boils down to: Could Thel have convinced Xytan not to kill everyone or would Xytan have just brushed him aside like he did with Voro?

Interesting idea.

In truth in think the race and faction that would have been effected most by Wattinree’s survival is the Jiralhanae.

The conclusion of Halo 2 along with the events of Ghosts of Onyx seemed to suggest both the Sangheili and Jiralhanae were both gearing up for full scale war which would have made the human-covenant conflict look like a minor brush-fire by comparison, however the Great Schism seemed to have pretty much fizzled out by 2553 with the conflict becoming one between many Covenant splinter factions, most with mixed ethnicity.

The Return suggests there is still conflict between the Sangheili and Jiralhanae however any fighting seems to have been inconclusive, so I’d imagine its carried out by rogue ships and individuals who would rather fight each other then members of their own race, while the bulk of their respected society’s are locked in civil wars.

Wattinree’s survival could have changed all of this. A strong leader and sizable fleet right on the border of the Jiralhanae’s space at the start of the Great Schism would likely have provided both moderate (human-friendly) and more zealous (not human friendly) Sangheili with both a strong leader to rally behind and an very visible enemy to fight other then the UNSC.

It’s true that Wattinree hated humans and planned to finish the conflict, but its also important to remember that he saw a united Jiralhanae as a much greater potential threat and was already preparing to move against them at the point of his death. Had he and his fleet survived I think we would have seen a much more violent and destructive war between the Sangheili and Jiralhanae, rather then the Sangheili civil war and Jiralhanae in-fighting that is occurring instead. Sangheili such as Jul and Teclam would probably have joined Wattinree in his war against the Jiralhanae as away of building up a power base of allies opposed to the Arbiter’s followers, even while theoretically they were all fighting on the same side.

By 2558 the Sangheili-Jiralhanae war could be winding down. If things had gone well for Wattinree then the Jiralhanae may now be militarily crushed with a Sangheili army occupying a shattered Doisac, whilst sporadic guerrilla fighting still continues throughout the Jiralhanae colonies. Alternatively 6 years of heavy fighting could have seen a stalemate develop, with Wattinree agreeing to a tentative ceasefire with terms favourable to the Sangheili. (Mining rights, reparations, hostages etc)

Then again Wattinree’s campaign may have been an unmitigated disaster for a united Sangheili, forcing him into a humiliating peace with a now thoroughly unified Jiralhanae empire. (Ironically avoiding the famine they are in danger of in our timeline due to the favourable terms they were able to extract from the cease-fire. Food, economic and material aid etc)

Either way, either peaceable of forcibly eventually this exceptionally violent war between the Jiralhanae and Sangheili would be concluded, which would leave Wattinree free to deal with a still weakened UNSC and humanity.

Exactly what form this conflict would take would be down to the magnitude of Wattinree’s successes or failures during the preceding war with the Jiralhanae. If the war had gone exceptionally well, then the bulk of the Sangheili could well flock to Wattinree’s side leaving Sangheili such as the Arbiter outnumbered, even if his supporters were to side with the UNSC against Wattinree combined forces and resources. (Think of all the resource rich Jiralhanae worlds he’s conquered after six years of extremely successful campaigning)

Wattinree genuinely strikes me as a Sangheili whose greatest threat is his charisma. The Hierarch’s placed him into virtual exile because they feared not necessarily his military might but his ability to inspire common Covenant citizens and warriors to follow him, hence they feared the repercussions of simply executing him as a potential usurper.

The Sangheili that dominate the leadership splinter factions like the Servant’s of Abiding Truth rule by fear, murdering other Sangheili who openly disagree with them. Wattinree is probably a Sangheili who installs such authority that most Sangheili would fall into line behind him, regardless of their political beliefs.

The key point I’m making here is that unlike Jul or Teclam, I think Wattinree would probably favour diplomacy over war if that conflict involved the prospect of killing fellow Sangheili, which would include the Arbiter and his supporters however numerous they may be.

With the Jiralhanae now neutralized and war looming between the UNSC and Wattinree’s faction, I imagine Wattinree would issue the Arbiter with an ultimatum.

“Join us, stay out or the conflict, or die protecting the humans. The choice is yours.”

The Arbiter’s response and the resulting conflict would likely depend on the following. If Wattinree’s war against the Jiralhanae had been somewhat less then successful, then the Arbiter may well have equal or superior forces at his disposal which would allow him to force Wattinree to negotiate rather then spilling the blood of his own, which could see Wattinree’s coming war against the UNSC narrowly avoided. Alternatively if Wattinree emerged from an extremely successful and profitable war with the Jiralhanae, his forces could well outnumbered the Arbiter’s considerably.

Whether the Arbiter would still stand by the UNSC in the face of Wattinree’s overwhelming superiority in ships, troops and resources would likely depend on his reasonable chances of success. As long as there was still a viable chance of victory I think the Arbiter would stand by the UNSC, however I don’t think he would commit his forces to a battle he knew he could avoid but defiantly not win, which would likely result in an at least temporary truce between his forces and Wattinree’s, which unfortunately would leave the UNSC to face a combined Neo-Covenant fleet larger then any they had likely faced before.

As a side note, I don’t think Wattinree’s war against the UNSC would be repeat of the Hierarch’s campaign to eradicate humanity. While it obvious Wattinree had love no for humans, his exile an subsequent banishment to the fringe of Covenant territory suggests that the Hierarch’s didn’t trust him to command the war against the UNSC initially, perhaps fearing he was not sincere in his hatred of humanity. I think its possible that Wattinree was simply playing to the prejudice’s of his audience when he stated his intention to wipe out humanity once the present threat of the Jiralhanae had been removed. (Who’s know’s, in another alternative timeline where the High Council decided not to exile him but instead allowed him to lead the campaign against the UNSC, Wattinree’s ambition may have formed a temporary alliance with humanity in order to overthrow the ruling Heirairch’s and seize power.)

Either way I think its likely that in a post-schism universe Wattinree would view even a weakened UNSC as a potential threat if given sufficient time to re-group. Doesn’t mean he would have resorted to extermination, as he may have viewed and subjugated humanity as potentially useful.

Either way, Wattinree’s survival would have served to provide a figure for the divided Sangheili to rally around and made a full scale Sangheili-Jiralhanae war inevitable. Victory would have been likely but not certain, and once this conflict was done a second war with the UNSC and perhaps the Arbiter followers would have also been very likely.

> 2533274908138382;10:
> > 2533274807602068;9:
> > > 2533274964189700;7:
> > > Looking back, that NOVA bomb acquired from reach sure seems like a silly plot element.
> >
> >
> > Yeah its borderline limited that arguably the most brilliant Sangheili strategist alive would put a prototype weapon aboard his flagship in the middle of a war.
> >
> > As for this thread. I think based on what we know about Xytan he’d side with Thel. ‘But he hates humans’. Does he though? He sends Voro with a token force to secure Onyx not because he thinks its important, but because he wanted to rid himself of a potential rival. If Onyx were so important he undoubtedly would have gone himself and sent Voro to deal with the Jiralhanae. Additionally Thel 'Vadam is one of the most renowned commanders within the Covenant with a proven track record of success rivaled probably only by Xytan himself. There’s likely a good amount of mutual respect between the two. Respect that low ranked plebs like Jul and Avu simply do not have.
> >
> > Thel also likely has a large fleet, with the entirety of the Sangheili portion of the High Charity defense fleet under his control. Essentially the options here are Xytan siding with zealous ideals that have failed him before, or siding with the kaidon who single-handedly ended the war by killing both Tartarus and Truth avenging the High Council and millions of Sangheili. In Halo 3 we even hear Elites calling Chief Reclaimer. All Thel has to do is say ‘Yeah the Prophets lied about the Humans too, they are actually the inheritors of the Forerunners’ and he could probably get a lot of the religious nuts on board with a human alliance as well.
>
>
> Well, here’s a couple things to keep in mind when you’re talking about Xytan:
>
> When he died, he still believed in the Great Journey, and by extension, believed Humans were vermin that needed to be eradicated.
>
> Thel was also stripped of rank and disgraced after his failure at Installation 04. So assuming Xytan knew of his service record, he’d probably think his failure out-weights his triumphs. So whether of not there’s mutual respect between the two remains to be seen.
>
> Basically, this argument boils down to: Could Thel have convinced Xytan not to kill everyone or would Xytan have just brushed him aside like he did with Voro?

Mmm did he though? Xytan is a master manipulator as shown by his playing of Voro. He likely still believed in the Great Journey because there was no proof it didn’t exist. Voro seemed to directly compare Xytan and Thel and if anything Xytan would sympathize with being shafted by Prophets with Xytan being exiled due to his own success. If Xytan found out what really happened at 04 with the Prophet of Stewardship Xytan would understand.

I think Thel could convince Xytan. Voro was brushed aside because a week before he was at Saepon’kal, he was merely a Major domo serving as second in command of an ORS-class cruiser. Thel has commanded fleets larger than what Xytan has (at Reach) has a good success rate + has proof the Journey is a lie from Forerunner artifacts. Certainly Oracle Master Parala Ahmonro will agree with Xytan once he interrogates Guilty Spark for himself. Don’t forget Thel is the first person to unite the keeps of Sanghelios in over 3,000 years. There’s a reason Truth set him up to become the next Arbiter instead of just exiling him like he did with Xytan. (And we kinda know this since the Minor Prophet of Stewardship and Truth were in regular communications).

I personally think that before the Schism you probably couldn’t have found a Sangheili commander more dedicated to the Journey than Thel. Sangheili are willing to hear him out. He’s kind of like the Urdnot Wrex of the Sangheili. Sure some may not like him, but everyone respects him. I think Xytan given their shared relationship with the Hierarchs would build an alliance with the Arbiter.

I think ONI would do everything in their power to remove him, working closely with Thel to achieve that, given his opposition to humanity in some sense.

I don’t think Xytan would continue with the whole human genocide thing given that this only makes sense if you believe what the Prophets say and believe in Forerunner divinity through the Great Journey. Figuring out whether he would still believe humans to be vermin isn’t the issue though I don’t think. It’s whether he was a Sangheili supremacist or not. He still wanted to win the war, which means that humans would probably have become a client species of whatever Covenant Xytan attempted to control after the Schism if he were successful. How that would pan out in the long I have no idea, as we know virtually nothing about what he believes inwardly or how emerging truths would shape his decisions. He could very well become this hypothetical universes Thel 'Vadam and overhaul the Covenant for better, or could become a racially supremacist despot.

If the NOVA bomb was never activated, the Great Schism would’ve been an incredibly short conflict assuming Xytan’s plan to wipe out the Jiralhanae leadership could succeed. He would probably form an alliance with Thel 'Vadam soon afterward, knowing that someone as symbolically important and strategically brilliant as the Arbiter would be a valuable ally. They’d likely unite the majority of the Sangheili under their duel-leadership considering how powerful both of them were but if Thel were unable to convince Xytan to seek a lasting peace with humans and if the Imperial Admiral were to remain hostile to us, it would probably result in political infighting with the possibility of a full-scale civil war erupting somewhere down the line, during which the UNSC would support the Arbiter. Things probably wouldn’t be much more stable for the Sangheili than they are with him dead, but there’d likely be fewer independent warlords and Jul 'Mdama would’ve never risen to any real power, instead serving under Xytan’s order.

> 2533274908138382;10:
> > 2533274807602068;9:
> > > 2533274964189700;7:
> > > Looking back, that NOVA bomb acquired from reach sure seems like a silly plot element.
> >
> >
> > Yeah its borderline limited that arguably the most brilliant Sangheili strategist alive would put a prototype weapon aboard his flagship in the middle of a war.
> >
> > As for this thread. I think based on what we know about Xytan he’d side with Thel. ‘But he hates humans’. Does he though? He sends Voro with a token force to secure Onyx not because he thinks its important, but because he wanted to rid himself of a potential rival. If Onyx were so important he undoubtedly would have gone himself and sent Voro to deal with the Jiralhanae. Additionally Thel 'Vadam is one of the most renowned commanders within the Covenant with a proven track record of success rivaled probably only by Xytan himself. There’s likely a good amount of mutual respect between the two. Respect that low ranked plebs like Jul and Avu simply do not have.
> >
> > Thel also likely has a large fleet, with the entirety of the Sangheili portion of the High Charity defense fleet under his control. Essentially the options here are Xytan siding with zealous ideals that have failed him before, or siding with the kaidon who single-handedly ended the war by killing both Tartarus and Truth avenging the High Council and millions of Sangheili. In Halo 3 we even hear Elites calling Chief Reclaimer. All Thel has to do is say ‘Yeah the Prophets lied about the Humans too, they are actually the inheritors of the Forerunners’ and he could probably get a lot of the religious nuts on board with a human alliance as well.
>
>
> Well, here’s a couple things to keep in mind when you’re talking about Xytan:
>
> When he died, he still believed in the Great Journey, and by extension, believed Humans were vermin that needed to be eradicated.
>
> Thel was also stripped of rank and disgraced after his failure at Installation 04. So assuming Xytan knew of his service record, he’d probably think his failure out-weights his triumphs. So whether of not there’s mutual respect between the two remains to be seen.
>
> Basically, this argument boils down to: Could Thel have convinced Xytan not to kill everyone or would Xytan have just brushed him aside like he did with Voro?

Regarding Xytan (and any other Sangheili) and his beliefs about humanity at that time, you have to take into account just when Ghosts of Onyx is actually taking place and when that scene is. During pretty much all of GoO, the events of Halo 2 are still on-going, all any of the Sangheili know at that point is that the rest of the Covenant has turned on them at behest of the Prophets and the genocidal campaign being spear-headed by the Brutes. The truth about the Halo’s and that the Prophet’s teaching were all lies would not have had the chance or opportunity to be spread around yet. None of them would have any indication that the whole entire war and Great Journey itself was a bit, fat lie. That’s why the subject of the Great Journey wasn’t a topic at all at that gathering, and why humanity was barely even a footnote in the discussion. None of them knew the truth at that point (if the Arbiter had even learned it himself and killed Tartarus at that point), so they didn’t have anything to tell them otherwise that humans weren’t really a threat or some sort of abomination, the word simply hadn’t had time to spread yet, even with as fast and near-instant Covenant communications are.

Also, the position of Arbiter is a sign and symbol worthy of respect just as much as it’s a position of shame. One becomes an Arbiter due to some perceived shame, but the actual Arbiters are almost always highly regarded, both in life and death. There wouldn’t be a whole entire mausoleum dedicated to them on High Charity if it were purely a position of shame. And as Halo 3 shows, the whole entire Covenant perception of the Arbiter and the Mark of Shame itself pretty much went right out the window barely even into the start of the Great Schism given that in Halo 3 the Arbiter is basically the de facto leader of the Sangheili in the game, and if you look at the character models, there are actually a few Sangheili running around with the Mark of Shame as emblem on their armor in the campaign. There’s also the fact that as far as the majority of the Elites are concerned, Thel is one of the primary reasons why they quickly organized and were able to pull through the initial phase and onset of the Great Schism as sturdily as they did, for a multitude of reasons really, one of the foremost ones being killing Tartaros and throwing the Brutes into their usual pattern of instability induced by their infighting and climbing over each other to reach the alpha status. And then of course later on his killing of Truth as well. Someone as important as Thel was both before and after becoming Arbiter, Xytan wouldn’t have been able to just brush Thel off, not without losing a lot of potential followers. Same with if he tried to make himself a completely different faction (like the Servants of Abiding Truth, or Jul and his forces) to rival or oppose Thel. And as someone else also pointed out, Xytan has experience already with the Prophets using underhanded means to solidify their own power and try push anyone who could potentially rival them or attempt to usurp control off to the sidelines and out of the spotlight, if not outright getting rid of them. Thel being made the Arbiter and stripped of his command wouldn’t really be much to sway Xytan negatively in his opinion or his willingness to listen to Thel.

I think the Covenant would rise again just like it did under Jul, but this time with a much larger power base and the ability to take complete control of Sanghelios since the Arbiter was busy with stopping Truth.

Seeing as how Xytan was a fairly ambitious character, a hatred of humanity would become irrelevant. He’d still want to conquer these little worms (humans) just like the Covenant would have.

Basically the war would have continued with a minority of Sangheili attempting to assist humanity to fight a new and dangerous Covenant under the (seemingly) only Sangheili to top Thel Vadam in tactical ingenuity.

I’m curious. If he lived, why do y’all say that we would’ve sided with Jul or with the Abiders of Truth (I think I got it Right)?

> 2533274929494620;2:
> I think he would have allied with Jul’s Covenant or the Servants of Abiding Truth.

What he said

I think the nova bomb was a cover up for a failsafe Incase the schism did not go well. He is probably in the middle of space in cryo with the entire combined fleet of paticular justice. In halo 6 they should have rtas vadam(shipmaster/half jaw) and xytan ‘jar wattinree return to fight Cortana and her guardians.

Please don’t revive 2 year old topics thanks