All This "Skill" Talk....

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

Lately there have been many posts (mine included) regarding Weapon Balance, and the role of “Skill” in gunplay. But it seems there’s a lot of disagreement here.

First of all, let me make clear that this is just MY OPINION, so don’t take it as a fact, you can have your own opinion, I’ll try to back up mine as good as I can.

The main conflict of this “weapon balance” posts is that there are people that think that the presence of a dominant weapon in previous Halos demanded more “skill” that having multiple weapons working best at determined ranges. For example, the latest of these posts, titled **"**Why the Halo 5 Sandbox is an unbalaced joke" says that the “utility weapon” (Pistol) in Halo 5 should be able to compete with BRs, ARs, SMGs, etc. That a person should not have a definite advantage by picking up a BR if other person has just a Pistol. Well, the thing is that the Pistol is definitely able to compete with any loadout weapon, of course, provided that its user knows how to outmaneuver his/her opponent and how to use the pistol. Here’s when the “skill” term is debated.

Skill can be defined in multiple ways, but I think this is the simplest and yet most complete definition: "An ability and capacity acquired through deliberate,systematic, and sustained effort to smoothly and adaptively carryout complex activities or job functions involving ideas (cognitive skills), things (technical skills), and/or people (interpersonal skills)."

So, this is what happens, some think that being there ONE weapon that was the optimal choice for virtually any combat situation (like in Halo 2 and Halo 3) demanded more skill because you had to focus your effort into just that one gun, and took time to know how to use it at any range. And then, some think that knowing how to use every weapon and ability available requires more skill because you have to adapt everything you use to every range.

From this, we get two options:

  • Know WHAT to use - Know HOW to useIn previous Halos, you had to know what to use, in H:CE it was the Pistol, in H2 and H3, it was the BR, you had to realize that using the Pistol or BR was the best option, and that you had to learn how to use it and get good with it in order to stand a chance. In Halo 5, you have to know HOW to use your weapons, so that you can maximize it’s effectiveness and make them usefull outside of their intended range.

Well, (again, my opinion) I think knowing how to use every weapon and ability at my disposal, demands more skill than know what weapon to use, simply because if I know I have to use a BR to get a chance to kill, I’ll just use it everytime, and of course, I’ll learn how to use it better each time, specially since it wasn’t exactly “hard” to learn how to use it in previous Halos. But knowing how to use every weapon and ability available to me, means I know how to adapt to almost any combat situation. For example: Maybe I find myself using a DMR or BR against an SMG user at close range, If I know how to move, how to throw off their aim, how to confuse my opponent, I’ll have more chanced to win the encounter, even though I have a weapon not suited for that range, likewise, if I’m using an AR and my oponent a BR, and I can manage to outmaneuver him, and time my shots, burst fire, and not just spray n pray until I run out of ammo, I have a possibility to win the encounter, although the odds are agains me. And of course, simply knowing each weapon’s caracteristics and choosing accordingly to the map layout, means I have a better understanding of how the game works, instead of deliberately choosing an inferior weapon (in a specific range) and saying that it’s harder to use since is a precision weapon, when I am putting myself at disadvantage (same as choosing an automatic weapon for a mid - long range field).

I know for sure A LOT of people will not agree, but as I said, it’s just MY OPINION, and as everyone else, I think I can express it.

2

I agree I like Halo 5’s weapon balance personally I think it is the best of any halo! Now the low time to kill and completely crazy bullet magnestism I could do without!

3

im not going to read all that

4

I think all of this comes from that the entire player base has got used to playing un balanced Halos for years and now for the first time we actually have a balanced game people cant adapt, people are to used to only needing to use 1 or 2 weapons per match.

5

> 2533274805919869;3:
> im not going to read all that

Don’t have to lol, I know it’s long

6

> 2533274904245048;4:
> I think all of this comes from that the entire player base has got used to playing un balanced Halos for years and now for the first time we actually have a balanced game people cant adapt, people are to used to only needing to use 1 or 2 weapons per match.

I think that too, well, naturally it’s hard to accept change, I am glad for this change though

7

I actually think the balance in this game is good, with a few exceptions, the storm rifle being the biggest and the fuel rod in second. The storm rifle is the most OP gun in the game by far, it’s amazing. Go ahead and test it out. The storm rifle devours anyone at close and semi close range. I can’t tell you how many time’s I’ve got the first shot with an SMG/AR/BR, landed every shot and still lost to a storm rifle because its killtime is ~3 seconds.

8

> 2533274816628272;7:
> I actually think the balance in this game is good, with a few exceptions, the storm rifle being the biggest and the fuel rod in second. The storm rifle is the most OP gun in the game by far, it’s amazing. Go ahead and test it out. The storm rifle devours anyone at close and semi close range. I can’t tell you how many time’s I’ve got the first shot with an SMG/AR/BR, landed every shot and still lost to a storm rifle because its killtime is ~3 seconds.

Oh I know, the Storm Rifle is a beast at close range, but you would have to land almost every shot to get the kill before overheating, but its spread 10m ahead makes it almost useless… an SMG vs a SR at CLOSE (kissing range) range, the SMG will destroy you lol, but I think it is compensated by the fact that if you miss some shots with the SMG you still can win easily, while with the SR the overheat time won’t let you make a comeback if you miss like 3 shots

9

> 2533274833830630;8:
> > 2533274816628272;7:
> > I actually think the balance in this game is good, with a few exceptions, the storm rifle being the biggest and the fuel rod in second. The storm rifle is the most OP gun in the game by far, it’s amazing. Go ahead and test it out. The storm rifle devours anyone at close and semi close range. I can’t tell you how many time’s I’ve got the first shot with an SMG/AR/BR, landed every shot and still lost to a storm rifle because its killtime is ~3 seconds.
>
>
> Oh I know, the Storm Rifle is a beast at close range, but you would have to land almost every shot to get the kill before overheating, but its spread 10m ahead makes it almost useless… an SMG vs a SR at CLOSE (kissing range) range, the SMG will destroy you lol, but I think it is compensated by the fact that if you miss some shots with the SMG you still can win easily, while with the SR the overheat time won’t let you make a comeback if you miss like 3 shots

You can stop for a split second half way through the the charge basically resets. Go into any arena game on Empire/Fathom and the storm rifle runs it. The spread doesn’t matter at close range.

10

you pretty much made another bait post so you can have this on top like your other one

its essentially the same post

11

> 2533274805919869;3:
> im not going to read all that

What’s up with these comments? If you’re not going to read it then why bother commenting? You can even look at the title before entering.

To OP: I agree “skill” will vary person to person based of definition. When it comes to halo skills, I think of it as someone who is versatile in multiple scenarios whether it be 1v1 situations, 2v1, what weapon to best use, how to control the map while not losing your spawn side, when to challenge and when to back off till the right moment, ect ect. List could go on. Skill isn’t just the weapons in a halo game, it makes me laugh how people can think weapons make a game unbalanced and unskillful. It’s not all about the movements, the guns, the pickups, it’s a multitude of everything all mixed together if you ask me.

12

> 2533274816628272;9:
> > 2533274833830630;8:
> > > 2533274816628272;7:
> > > I actually think the balance in this game is good, with a few exceptions, the storm rifle being the biggest and the fuel rod in second. The storm rifle is the most OP gun in the game by far, it’s amazing. Go ahead and test it out. The storm rifle devours anyone at close and semi close range. I can’t tell you how many time’s I’ve got the first shot with an SMG/AR/BR, landed every shot and still lost to a storm rifle because its killtime is ~3 seconds.
> >
> >
> > Oh I know, the Storm Rifle is a beast at close range, but you would have to land almost every shot to get the kill before overheating, but its spread 10m ahead makes it almost useless… an SMG vs a SR at CLOSE (kissing range) range, the SMG will destroy you lol, but I think it is compensated by the fact that if you miss some shots with the SMG you still can win easily, while with the SR the overheat time won’t let you make a comeback if you miss like 3 shots
>
>
> You can stop for a split second half way through the the charge basically resets. Go into any arena game on Empire/Fathom and the storm rifle runs it. The spread doesn’t matter at close range.

Well, it is intended for that range anyways, In fact I almost always use it on Empire, but I’m not pretty good with it, I either miss or overheat, I panic when I have someone 10cm in front of me lol

13

> 2533274923562209;11:
> > 2533274805919869;3:
> > im not going to read all that
>
>
> What’s up with these comments? If you’re not going to read it then why bother commenting? You can even look at the title before entering.
>
> To OP: I agree “skill” will vary person to person based of definition. When it comes to halo skills, I think of it as someone who is versatile in multiple scenarios whether it be 1v1 situations, 2v1, what weapon to best use, how to control the map while not losing your spawn side, when to challenge and when to back off till the right moment, ect ect. Lost could go on. Skill isn’t just the weapons in a halo game, it makes me laugh how people can think weapons make a game unbalanced and unskillful. It’s not all about the movements, the guns, the pickups, it’s a multitude of everything all mixed together if you ask me.

Exactly, yet a lot of people seem to get their pride hurt when they get killed when using an precision weapon, not taking into account the situation, a lot think “I am using this weapon, I SHOULD win”, and it’s just not like that. Like when someone told me that if I’m using a vehicle against a Plasma Pistol user, I would lose, i told him that if that player only shoots that PP at me, he won’t do anything, he has to MOVE, in fact, what I meant happened here lol. Gamer DVR - Xbox clips, Twitch clips and streams, Xbox screenshots, Xbox videos, Xbox DVR and more on Gamer DVR!

14

> 2533275010968401;10:
> you pretty much made another bait post so you can have this on top like your other one
>
> its essentially the same post

Remind me when did I have another post on top… I know I already made a post regarding something like this, just not as detailed, yet it was never on top (as far as I remember)

15

There are multiple ways to approach this topic that all end up in the conclusion that this idea you’re trying to bring forward doesn’t work. First of all, there’s the reality that certain weapons are just inherently more useful in a larger range of scenarios than others. Namely, ranged weapons in Halo are inherently more viable than weapons with short ranges. This is due to the fact that whereas close range weapons lose accuracy as the range increases, the converse isn’t true for ranged weapons. They will always be as accurate, and as deadly at close range as they are at long range. This means that the only way a close range weapon can actually beat a long range weapon if it kills faster. However, there are limits at both ends on how much faster the kill time can be. On one hand, the kill time of the long range weapon is bounded from above, because if it were too slow, long range combat would become ineffective. On the other hand, the kill time of the close range weapon is bounded from below, because it can’t kill too fast or else the pace of gameplay also suffers. This means that there’s only little wiggle room on how much faster the close range weapon can actually kill.

Meanwhile, the long range weapons have inherently larger range, because they’re long range. In fact, this is one thing people often fail to realize when they criticize the long range weapons in Halo. The long range weapons aren’t as useful they are because the developers have wanted them to be so. They are useful because a significant portion of combat in Halo happens at long range. The long range spans significantly more than the close range, so it’s only natural that the long range weapons are viable more often than the close range weapons.

Secondly, there just aren’t that many unique applications of weapons. The sandbox of Halo has an abundance of weapons, as do most shooters, because players and developers alike feel like it adds more value to the game, even if most of the weapons are going to be rarely used. However, in reality, there’s only a small set of weapons in the sandbox of Halo which are really needed. The rest of the weapons don’t add any significant depth to gameplay because there are no more niches to fill. For example: AR vs. SMG. These weapons fill the exact same niche, one of them is completely pointless. Even in the absolute best case scenario, this “know what to use” only includes a handful of relevant weapons the uses of which the player has to understand. That’s not really much of a task for a competent player to learn. It’s a very straightforward process to understand which weapon works when.

The third problem is that a player can only ever carry two weapons at a time. Suppose we were able to find a meaningful division into a greater number of categories than long, mid-, and close. The player could only ever hope to be able to be useful in two of these, leaving them completely incapable of operating in the two other ones if weapons had no interoperability between ranges whatsoever. In some games this might be an intentional feature, but Halo is a movement oriented game. Halo is a relatively fast paced game where the expectation is that the player can move around the map fast and effectively. This can only be possible if the player can combat effectively at all ranges with whatever weapons they happen to have on hand. The argument that weapon tactics are about knowing which weapon to use when would apply if the player could hold all weapons in the game simultaneously like in old school shooters, but it doesn’t apply if the player is only restricted to two weapons.

Now that we have it settled that the player can only ever hope to hold two weapons at a time, we get to the topic of range interoperability. This is how the weapon sandbox should work. There should be certain ranges where certain weapons are more viable than others, but not so that they completely dominate the range. However, a weapon should still be able to have a reasonable chance against a weapon in the nearby range. For example, a BR user should be able to take on an AR user, and have a reasonable chance of winning if the AR user doesn’t play absolutely perfectly. This has traditionally been the case. The problem has traditionally been that it doesn’t go the other way. That is, the AR has never really had any chance against precision weapons much beyond close range, and this is the reason why the automatics in Halo feel so inadequate. It’s not that the precision weapons are too good. It’s that the automatic weapons are just so bad in ranged combat.

Then we can discuss the utility weapon. The utility weapon arises really naturally when you have a sandbox where weapons have some range interoperability. The long range weapons are naturally the utility weapons because they are the most viable option at the range which, as concluded earlier, just happens to be the largest and most prominent range in the game. At the same time, they also have a fighting change at close range due to interoperability, which means that they are the only weapons in the game that have some viabilty at every range. Trying to do away with the utility weapon and pretend that it’s not an important part of the game is completely pointless because it’s a completely natural part of the sandbox. Rather than wasting time on removing the utility weapon, it’s much more fruitful to try to make the rest of the niche weapons more interoperable so that they, too, can have some usefulness.

Finally, there’s a crucial truth about automatic and precision weapons in Halo: precision weapons take inherently more skill to use. A weapon with a tighter spread will always be more difficult to use than a weapon with a large spread. There is just no way around this. And as the weapon hierarchy goes: the weapon that requires more effort to use effectively should have a wider range of viablity than the weapon that takes less effort. After all, if the player could choose the path of less effort to be more or at least as successful, the path of more effort might as well not exist because the rational player will always pick the path of less effort. So, as long as close range weapons are low skill weapons, they will always need to remain inherently more niche than long range weapons.

16

> 2533274825830455;15:
> There are multiple ways to approach this topic that all end up in the conclusion that this idea you’re trying to bring forward doesn’t work. First of all, there’s the reality that certain weapons are just inherently more useful in a larger range of scenarios than others. Namely, ranged weapons in Halo are inherently more viable than weapons with short ranges. This is due to the fact that whereas close range weapons lose accuracy as the range increases, the converse isn’t true for ranged weapons. They will always be as accurate, and as deadly at close range as they are at long range. This means that the only way a close range weapon can actually beat a long range weapon if it kills faster. However, there are limits at both ends on how much faster the kill time can be. On one hand, the kill time of the long range weapon is bounded from above, because if it were too slow, long range combat would become ineffective. On the other hand, the kill time of the close range weapon is bounded from below, because it can’t kill too fast or else the pace of gameplay also suffers. This means that there’s only little wiggle room on how much faster the close range weapon can actually kill.
>
> Meanwhile, the long range weapons have inherently larger range, because they’re long range. In fact, this is one thing people often fail to realize when they criticize the long range weapons in Halo. The long range weapons aren’t as useful they are because the developers have wanted them to be so. They are useful because a significant portion of combat in Halo happens at long range. The long range spans significantly more than the close range, so it’s only natural that the long range weapons are viable more often than the close range weapons.
>
> Secondly, there just aren’t that many unique applications of weapons. The sandbox of Halo has an abundance of weapons, as do most shooters, because players and developers alike feel like it adds more value to the game, even if most of the weapons are going to be rarely used. However, in reality, there’s only a small set of weapons in the sandbox of Halo which are really needed. The rest of the weapons don’t add any significant depth to gameplay because there are no more niches to fill. For example: AR vs. SMG. These weapons fill the exact same niche, one of them is completely pointless. Even in the absolute best case scenario, this “know what to use” only includes a handful of relevant weapons the uses of which the player has to understand. That’s not really much of a task for a competent player to learn. It’s a very straightforward process to understand which weapon works when.
>
> The third problem is that a player can only ever carry two weapons at a time. Suppose we were able to find a meaningful division into a greater number of categories than long, mid-, and close. The player could only ever hope to be able to be useful in two of these, leaving them completely incapable of operating in the two other ones if weapons had no interoperability between ranges whatsoever. In some games this might be an intentional feature, but Halo is a movement oriented game. Halo is a relatively fast paced game where the expectation is that the player can move around the map fast and effectively. This can only be possible if the player can combat effectively at all ranges with whatever weapons they happen to have on hand. The argument that weapon tactics are about knowing which weapon to use when would apply if the player could hold all weapons in the game simultaneously like in old school shooters, but it doesn’t apply if the player is only restricted to two weapons.
>
> Now that we have it settled that the player can only ever hope to hold two weapons at a time, we get to the topic of range interoperability. This is how the weapon sandbox should work. There should be certain ranges where certain weapons are more viable than others, but not so that they completely dominate the range. However, a weapon should still be able to have a reasonable chance against a weapon in the nearby range. For example, a BR user should be able to take on an AR user, and have a reasonable chance of winning if the AR user doesn’t play absolutely perfectly. This has traditionally been the case. The problem has traditionally been that it doesn’t go the other way. That is, the AR has never really had any chance against precision weapons much beyond close range, and this is the reason why the automatics in Halo feel so inadequate. It’s not that the precision weapons are too good. It’s that the automatic weapons are just so bad in ranged combat.
>
> Then we can discuss the utility weapon. The utility weapon arises really naturally when you have a sandbox where weapons have some range interoperability. The long range weapons are naturally the utility weapons because they are the most viable option at the range which, as concluded earlier, just happens to be the largest and most prominent range in the game. At the same time, they also have a fighting change at close range due to interoperability, which means that they are the only weapons in the game that have some viabilty at every range. Trying to do away with the utility weapon and pretend that it’s not an important part of the game is completely pointless because it’s a completely natural part of the sandbox. Rather than wasting time on removing the utility weapon, it’s much more fruitful to try to make the rest of the niche weapons more interoperable so that they, too, can have some usefulness.
>
> Finally, there’s a crucial truth about automatic and precision weapons in Halo: precision weapons take inherently more skill to use. A weapon with a tighter spread will always be more difficult to use than a weapon with a large spread. There is just no way around this. And as the weapon hierarchy goes: the weapon that requires more effort to use effectively should have a wider range of viablity than the weapon that takes less effort. After all, if the player could choose the path of less effort to be more or at least as successful, the path of more effort might as well not exist because the rational player will always pick the path of less effort. So, as long as close range weapons are low skill weapons, they will always need to remain inherently more niche than long range weapons.

Sorry, I didn’t get all of that… I mean, I don’t know if you agree or disagree with me, I read some parts that looked like you agreed, and some other where I thought you disagreed.

17

> 2533274833830630;6:
> > 2533274904245048;4:
> > I think all of this comes from that the entire player base has got used to playing un balanced Halos for years and now for the first time we actually have a balanced game people cant adapt, people are to used to only needing to use 1 or 2 weapons per match.
>
>
> I think that too, well, naturally it’s hard to accept change, I am glad for this change though

There’s still a lot of people whining about the AR.

18

its not your opinion its fact

19

> 2533274833830630;16:
> > 2533274825830455;15:
> > There are multiple ways to approach this topic that all end up in the conclusion that this idea you’re trying to bring forward doesn’t work. First of all, there’s the reality that certain weapons are just inherently more useful in a larger range of scenarios than others. Namely, ranged weapons in Halo are inherently more viable than weapons with short ranges. This is due to the fact that whereas close range weapons lose accuracy as the range increases, the converse isn’t true for ranged weapons. They will always be as accurate, and as deadly at close range as they are at long range. This means that the only way a close range weapon can actually beat a long range weapon if it kills faster. However, there are limits at both ends on how much faster the kill time can be. On one hand, the kill time of the long range weapon is bounded from above, because if it were too slow, long range combat would become ineffective. On the other hand, the kill time of the close range weapon is bounded from below, because it can’t kill too fast or else the pace of gameplay also suffers. This means that there’s only little wiggle room on how much faster the close range weapon can actually kill.
> >
> > Meanwhile, the long range weapons have inherently larger range, because they’re long range. In fact, this is one thing people often fail to realize when they criticize the long range weapons in Halo. The long range weapons aren’t as useful they are because the developers have wanted them to be so. They are useful because a significant portion of combat in Halo happens at long range. The long range spans significantly more than the close range, so it’s only natural that the long range weapons are viable more often than the close range weapons.
> >
> > Secondly, there just aren’t that many unique applications of weapons. The sandbox of Halo has an abundance of weapons, as do most shooters, because players and developers alike feel like it adds more value to the game, even if most of the weapons are going to be rarely used. However, in reality, there’s only a small set of weapons in the sandbox of Halo which are really needed. The rest of the weapons don’t add any significant depth to gameplay because there are no more niches to fill. For example: AR vs. SMG. These weapons fill the exact same niche, one of them is completely pointless. Even in the absolute best case scenario, this “know what to use” only includes a handful of relevant weapons the uses of which the player has to understand. That’s not really much of a task for a competent player to learn. It’s a very straightforward process to understand which weapon works when.
> >
> > The third problem is that a player can only ever carry two weapons at a time. Suppose we were able to find a meaningful division into a greater number of categories than long, mid-, and close. The player could only ever hope to be able to be useful in two of these, leaving them completely incapable of operating in the two other ones if weapons had no interoperability between ranges whatsoever. In some games this might be an intentional feature, but Halo is a movement oriented game. Halo is a relatively fast paced game where the expectation is that the player can move around the map fast and effectively. This can only be possible if the player can combat effectively at all ranges with whatever weapons they happen to have on hand. The argument that weapon tactics are about knowing which weapon to use when would apply if the player could hold all weapons in the game simultaneously like in old school shooters, but it doesn’t apply if the player is only restricted to two weapons.
> >
> > Now that we have it settled that the player can only ever hope to hold two weapons at a time, we get to the topic of range interoperability. This is how the weapon sandbox should work. There should be certain ranges where certain weapons are more viable than others, but not so that they completely dominate the range. However, a weapon should still be able to have a reasonable chance against a weapon in the nearby range. For example, a BR user should be able to take on an AR user, and have a reasonable chance of winning if the AR user doesn’t play absolutely perfectly. This has traditionally been the case. The problem has traditionally been that it doesn’t go the other way. That is, the AR has never really had any chance against precision weapons much beyond close range, and this is the reason why the automatics in Halo feel so inadequate. It’s not that the precision weapons are too good. It’s that the automatic weapons are just so bad in ranged combat.
> >
> > Then we can discuss the utility weapon. The utility weapon arises really naturally when you have a sandbox where weapons have some range interoperability. The long range weapons are naturally the utility weapons because they are the most viable option at the range which, as concluded earlier, just happens to be the largest and most prominent range in the game. At the same time, they also have a fighting change at close range due to interoperability, which means that they are the only weapons in the game that have some viabilty at every range. Trying to do away with the utility weapon and pretend that it’s not an important part of the game is completely pointless because it’s a completely natural part of the sandbox. Rather than wasting time on removing the utility weapon, it’s much more fruitful to try to make the rest of the niche weapons more interoperable so that they, too, can have some usefulness.
> >
> > Finally, there’s a crucial truth about automatic and precision weapons in Halo: precision weapons take inherently more skill to use. A weapon with a tighter spread will always be more difficult to use than a weapon with a large spread. There is just no way around this. And as the weapon hierarchy goes: the weapon that requires more effort to use effectively should have a wider range of viablity than the weapon that takes less effort. After all, if the player could choose the path of less effort to be more or at least as successful, the path of more effort might as well not exist because the rational player will always pick the path of less effort. So, as long as close range weapons are low skill weapons, they will always need to remain inherently more niche than long range weapons.
>
>
> Sorry, I didn’t get all of that… I mean, I don’t know if you agree or disagree with me, I read some parts that looked like you agreed, and some other where I thought you disagreed.

I think he’s saying that CE was more balanced than H5. Joking/sarcasm aside, I really can’t tell if he has an opinion. I think he was just bringing the facts forward to help us understand the way that 343i balanced this game.

20

> 2533274891502148;17:
> > 2533274833830630;6:
> > > 2533274904245048;4:
> > > I think all of this comes from that the entire player base has got used to playing un balanced Halos for years and now for the first time we actually have a balanced game people cant adapt, people are to used to only needing to use 1 or 2 weapons per match.
> >
> >
> > I think that too, well, naturally it’s hard to accept change, I am glad for this change though
>
>
> There’s still a lot of people whining about the AR.

7% of kills at the top CSR are AR kills.

30% of kills at the lowest CSR are AR kills.

SourceIf you’re having a problem being killed by AR’s than you’re probably not that great at the game, and there’s no problem with that at all.