Air Vs Ground Vehicles Unbalanced

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

Lets say you are playing Warzone.

In the first assault, the player has six scorpians and a few mantises. There are several things which limit those vehicles.

  • They’re very slow. Its hard to target every angle and keep the opponent trapped in their base. They can’t easily chase a fleeing Spartan down.

  • They’re big targets. This makes them easy to hit with all kinds of weapons. Enough SMG’s can shred a tank.

  • Both of the above mean hitting these vehicles with lasers, railguns and homing weapons from long range is easy.

  • They’re vulnerable to boarding. Because they’re on the ground and have a limited field of view. Because of this tanks and mantis are frequently boarded from the back. Even a player with no REQ can do this.

  • Unless the tank is popping in and out of something big enough to conceal its enormous profile it is difficult to pop in and out of combat to prevent the vehicle losing health.

Basically there is a lot players can do to counter and destroy these vehicles. They have a lot of weaknesses and even a Spartan with no REQ’s can still have a solid chance of destroying a tank or mantis if he does something stupid like drive into a canyon.

Now instead, lets say the opponent gets, for the same cost, 4 Banshee Ultra and a few Hannibal Wasps. I am excluding the Phaeton because its so rare it barely counts. What limits these vehicles?

  • In theory they have a lot less raw hit points than tanks or a Mantis.

  • In theory they have less anti vehicle power than a Scorpian or Wraith.

  • In theory a flying vehicle can be hijacked.

  • In theory there is less intervening cover in the sky making it easy to get a target lock and for homing weapons to hit the vehicle.

However, none of these are actual weaknesses. An air vehicle is incredibly fast, a Banshee can swoop down on players as they spawn in and kill them before they realize whats going on, or shoot them as they leave their base. The player will then flip over and out of sight before any counter can be made. Some of the tougher craft like Ultra banshee are actually very tough and have ablative shields. Even if the entire team focused fire with all their BR and SMG it wouldn’t knock a Banshee out of the sky. More to the point, a swarm of aircraft have a lot of synergy. As one guy pops up and shoots one banshee he thinks can’t see him another can quickly zip over and kill the offender. This isn’t true for ground vehicles where they often get in the way and impede lines of fire.

Whilst they have less anti vehicle power this is somewhat irrelevant as well. You’re mostly fighting infantry and light vehicles; things these vehicles excel at killing. Being so quick, having the roll ability, you can just avoid the tank and wait for the unsupported vehicle to be lasered by your team-mates. If you’re a gambler, you can also use repeated flips and the fuel rod to destroy the tank or mantis. Usually a player only does this if the tank is on low health and he thinks he can get it before he takes too much damage.

Hijacking can only happen if the pilot deigns to come down to the ground. So its entirely situational.

Homing weapons are virtually useless against Banshees. One flip negates it. Sliding lazily to the left dodges. The only weapons that work are weapons that cannot be dodged like the laser and railgun because of how fast their projectiles are.

So they basically have no weaknesses. A railgun, laser, hydra and laser can blow these vehicles up. But they can blow up ground vehicles a lot easier. Even somebody who has never played the game can probably kill a scorpion with a laser or railgun. Doing it on an Ultra is a nightmare. Same goes for using EMP weapons. Really easy on a tank; nightmare on a flying vehicle. So they gain all of these advantages and effective immunity to the enemy teams guns with no trade off or weakness that can be exploited. It is far more easier to go on huge kill streaks with a banshee than a tank or mantis.

Solutions:

  • The flip shouldn’t negate homing. If homing is supposed to be a dedicated AA weapon then it shouldn’t be useless and people resorting to firing tank killing lasers into the air.

  • Homing should be much faster and easier to do on all weapons when aimed at air vehicles.

  • Reduce the Ultra’-Yoink!- points. Give its shields a slower recharge rate. An Ultra should not survive being hit by a scorpion; much less a Hannibal.

  • Basically players should have access to more aerial denial weapons and force players who use air vehicles to actually think “right theres a guy with a laser over there I should avoid there and kill stuff over here”, or “that tank can one shot me, I should avoid him or wait till he is on low health and shoot him in the back”, or “okay theres a swarm of guys with battle rifles I shouldn’t fly into the middle of them, lets pick them off as they spread out”. instead of them being allowed to brainlessly fuel rod everything that moves and win.

To my mind they should sacrifice protection and fire power for mobility compared to ground vehicles. Currently they don’t.

2

I see what you’re saying, and air vehicles are slightly more (1 or 2) REQS than an “equivalent” ground vehicles. Also, wasps and phaetons are easy to take down with emp or laser or a SPNKr prime. One rail guns shot into the cockpit of a wasp kills the driver.

Banshees, especially ultras and temples, are very hard though. I believe a Hannibal tank can one shot a temple if the beam is held on long enough. It can also cause an ultra to start smoking. Banshees aren’t that hard to emp, and if you have someone with a splaser it’s easy to emp and splaser.

Aerial vehicles can be hijacked and used against the original team; most ground cannot. So that is one risk about air, is that an ultra banshee can be flipped.

Finally, one thing to keep in mind is that Hannibal, oni, and Corp tanks can survive a hijack; no other vehicle can. Hannibal and ONI manti also can shred any air vehicle with the extremely fast chainguns and strong homing missiles

3

Banshee has 27.5% damage resistance vs standard weapons. Ultra and Temple variants get twice armour, while ONI and Ultra/Temple for Scorpions and Wraiths are only a 50% increase. Wasps, Phaetons, Mantis, don’t even get that high of a increase like Banshee.

4

> 2535453278998196;2:
> I see what you’re saying, and air vehicles are slightly more (1 or 2) REQS than an “equivalent” ground vehicles. Also, wasps and phaetons are easy to take down with emp or laser or a SPNKr prime. One rail guns shot into the cockpit of a wasp kills the driver.
>
> Banshees, especially ultras and temples, are very hard though. I believe a Hannibal tank can one shot a temple if the beam is held on long enough. It can also cause an ultra to start smoking. Banshees aren’t that hard to emp, and if you have someone with a splaser it’s easy to emp and splaser.
>
> Aerial vehicles can be hijacked and used against the original team; most ground cannot. So that is one risk about air, is that an ultra banshee can be flipped.
>
> Finally, one thing to keep in mind is that Hannibal, oni, and Corp tanks can survive a hijack; no other vehicle can. Hannibal and ONI manti also can shred any air vehicle with the extremely fast chainguns and strong homing missiles

Yeah but the base Banshee is level 5 and you can get the best Banshee at level 7. Whereas the best tank is level 9. So tanks are more expensive than banshees. Wasps are super cheap by all levels which is why they are so relatively fragile. Phaeton is so rare it barely even counts.

Those same weapons can shred tanks and mantis much easier. Its still pretty fiddly to shoot a pilot out of a wasps cockpit or hit a Phaeton who is usually going to play it safe because he can’t believe he is actually using this precious vehicle. As opposed to the barn door that is a scorpion.

I can’t remember seeing anyone get EMP’d and then lasered. People don’t use that level of co-ordination in WZ.

Only if the flyer comes low to the ground. They have reason to do that unless they act stupid and go for splatters which they have no need to since the fuel rod is so destructive.

I’ve survived hijacks as a tanker and usually your team obliges the enemy by shooting him and he has plenty of time to hop back on and finish the job. Plus it leaves the vehicle a wreck afterwards.

Homing can be voided by flipping. Hitting a ground vehicle with a Mantis rockets is a lot easier. My experience the chaingun tends to be a deterrent and good at popping shields but little else.

5

To be fair, Ground vehicles are stronger than air, so I really don’t see the problem here.

Ground = Strong, but slow.

Air = Fast, but weak.

There’s your balance…

6

> 2533274848704527;5:
> To be fair, Ground vehicles are stronger than air, so I really don’t see the problem here.

Not sure what ground vehicles you are referring to.

If you look at who gets the crazy kill streaks that should speak for itself.

Ground = Slow bullet magnet that’s easily hijacked

Air = Better in every regard with no compromise on fire power and so fast that having slightly less armor than a tank doesn’t matter too much.

7

> 2533274848704527;5:
> To be fair, Ground vehicles are stronger than air, so I really don’t see the problem here.
>
> Ground = Strong, but slow.
>
> Air = Fast, but weak.
>
> There’s your balance…

That’s if you know how to use them properly.

8

The highest tank is 8, not 9. A Hannibal wasp is 6, which an endgame (5) can destroy in one shot.

A base banshee is 5 but is one shot to arclight and endgames. Really the only tough air vehicle is an ultra. But a Hannibal tank, and then Hannibal and oni manti can wreck it

9

> 2535453278998196;8:
> The highest tank is 8, not 9. A Hannibal wasp is 6, which an endgame (5) can destroy in one shot.
>
> A base banshee is 5 but is one shot to arclight and endgames. Really the only tough air vehicle is an ultra. But a Hannibal tank, and then Hannibal and oni manti can wreck it

I am not surprised the most powerful anti tank gun in the game can ruin a scout fliers day. The question is why that extreme is required and doing that is a lot harder than coring a scorpion with said Endgame. If the weapons and vehicles were balanced then the Hannibal would be vastly less protected than the Scorpion and vulnerable to weapons that wouldn’t really trouble a Scorpion. Frankly I don’t feel I have that much more protection in a tank than a Banshee.

The Hannibal tanks and both Mantis are significantly more vulnerable to ground based AT weapons and being boarded. Plus they are a lot slower and its harder to use them to keep an enemy trapped in their base. Believe I am a lot more scared of an Ultra than a Hannibal tank or Mantis, she can avoid and ignore those vehicles. You can’t ignore a Banshee. This isn’t factored into the cost of the vehicle. Really a Hannibal is, on balance, less useful to your team and less likely to get you kills than the banshee Ultra.

I don’t see how the Mantis can beat an Ultra banshee. You’re still vulnerable to his fuel rods and nothing stops him retreating when your chaingun pops his shields. His flips can negate your homing rockets every time. Tanks can because they do a ton of damage, but the slower projectile on the basic scorpion means its easy to dodge for a Banshee.

Personally I don’t see the justification for an Ultra Banshee surviving being hit by some of the most powerful guns in the game.

10

My solution is to get rid of boarding all ground vehicles except the ghost. In old halo games you had hardly any mobility making it difficult to board a scorpion or any vehicle but now especially with the splinter grenade you can do a quick emp and run, slide, dash up to anything.

I think it would make vehicles a lot more fearsome like they used to be in old halos

11

“Tank beats everything”.

12

High armor, defense, and firepower is a small price to pay, but just for the record, the UNSC vehicles are slower than the Covenant’s, because the Covenant are more advanced and don’t use items like treads and wheels, but use air-cushions instead, therefore making them more manuverable.

13

It really boils down to preference in my mind. Any time I get a killstreak going in a vehicle it’s usually in a ground heavy vehicle. Where banshees are useful if you have a tank they can 1 or two shot a banshee depending on the one being piloted. There may need to be some tweaking with some of the specifics but it’s just using your strengths, most people it’s air vehicles.

14

I commonly see the distinct air advantage on almost every map and mode that I play on except for wasps. Wasps seem to always get destroyed by everyone on the map so fast, yet banshees and other aircraft seem to just dominate the entire battlefield. I easily can destroy a tank with a few attempts, but I can never seem to destroy a banshee no matter how many times I attempt. If I fire at them with a Spartan Laser they just do like 70 spins and flips and I can never fully track them, same goes with the hydra except usually a single warhead hits.

15

> 2535417180496827;14:
> I commonly see the distinct air advantage on almost every map and mode that I play on except for wasps. Wasps seem to always get destroyed by everyone on the map so fast, yet banshees and other aircraft seem to just dominate the entire battlefield. I easily can destroy a tank with a few attempts, but I can never seem to destroy a banshee no matter how many times I attempt. If I fire at them with a Spartan Laser they just do like 70 spins and flips and I can never fully track them, same goes with the hydra except usually a single warhead hits.

Have you played Big Team Battle?

If one team managed to get both of the Wasps on some maps it becomes a nightmare. I saw a match go around 100-4 one time, it was a massacre, they were just spawn killing everything. In Warzone you have a lot more buildings to hide in and can spawn with more powerful weapons. Players were actually cowering in crates to try and escape. :smiley:

16

> 2533274827113670;10:
> My solution is to get rid of boarding all ground vehicles except the ghost. In old halo games you had hardly any mobility making it difficult to board a scorpion or any vehicle but now especially with the splinter grenade you can do a quick emp and run, slide, dash up to anything.
>
> I think it would make vehicles a lot more fearsome like they used to be in old halos

No that’s a bad idea, it’s the mobility of the infantry. Their too fast

17

> 2533274939354123;16:
> > 2533274827113670;10:
> > My solution is to get rid of boarding all ground vehicles except the ghost. In old halo games you had hardly any mobility making it difficult to board a scorpion or any vehicle but now especially with the splinter grenade you can do a quick emp and run, slide, dash up to anything.
> >
> > I think it would make vehicles a lot more fearsome like they used to be in old halos
>
> No that’s a bad idea, it’s the mobility of the infantry. Their too fast

I’m not a fan of sprint in the game at all but that’s a whole other argument. If u didn’t want to take out boarding however atleast make the tank faster because as of right now it’s slow as molasses.