Active Camo should not be an AA

I know this topic has been done to death already, but I’m coming up against this AA more and more frequently and it’s starting to grind my gears. First of all let me point out the main benefits of Camo as an AA. Don’t even get me started on near an entire team all using it.

  • You can become nearly invisible at the touch of a button for a period of time. On large maps such as Ragnarok, with people on the hill and someone with a Sniper and Camo at an opposing base, it’s near enough impossible to spot them.

  • You don’t get a “Red Ring”, in that when aiming at someone using Camo, you don’t get the bullet magnetism/aim assist meaning hitting them is much harder.

  • They don’t even show up on Promethean Vision, while this AA has been debated in its own right, the fact that Camo doesn’t show up on this seems overkill (pun intended).

In the next Halo game (on Xbox One) it should be restored to being a Powerup, in the same manner as Overshield, Damage Boost and Speed Boost. As an AA its simply too powerful, slows down the pace of the game (particularly on large maps) and reduces games to standoffs where players aren’t willing to change position much. Please share your worst experiences of people using Camo…

I laughed. Because AC never fazes me unless I’m in a Mantis, or Radar is off.

IMO, AAs are inherently broken because they are different advantages that are usable (1) at spawn, (2) at-will, and (3) an infinite number of times through the player’s life. Active Camo is a great example.

The Active Camo powerup is superior to the Active Camo AA because:
[/li]- It is activated immediately upon pickup, so you can’t turn it on and off at will

  • You stay 100% camouflaged even if you are moving, which discourages camping
  • It is only usable once and then it must be picked up again

> IMO, AAs are inherently broken because they are different advantages that are usable (1) at spawn, (2) at-will, and (3) an infinite number of times through the player’s life. Active Camo is a great example.
>
> The Active Camo powerup is superior to the Active Camo AA because:
> [/li]1. It is activated immediately upon pickup, so you can’t turn it on and off at will
> 1. You stay 100% camouflaged even if you are moving, which discourages camping
> 1. It is only usable once and then it must be picked up again
[/quote]
This is honestly one of the most intelligent posts I have read (on any forum) in quite some time.

I respect your opinion Vector but I would personally tread the middle ground and say AA’s such as Thruster Pack and and Hologram aren’t powerful enough to have a impact upon the game large enough to disrupt it too much.

I completely understand your argument however. The “stronger” AA’s such as Active Camo, Jetpack and Promethean Vision are certainly great examples of that. I’ll never understand why it was changed to an AA in the first place.

I completely understand the arguments from the competitive community in general, I enjoy both social and competitive personally. In my opinion some items you can select in a loadout just shouldn’t be there or should appear on the map.

Why don’t 343 implement playlists for the competitive community so both parties are catered for? Throwdown seems a bit redundant when a proper Classic playlist could be established fairly easily.

I’ve never seen what the big deal is when people complain about the available load outs.

Everything from the plasma pistol to the camo has an advantage and disadvantage to it. And each of them can either save your life, or help someone else take yours.

And none of the are foolproof. The trick is figuring out how to use their load out to your advantage.

> I’ve never seen what the big deal is when people complain about the available load outs.
>
> Everything from the plasma pistol to the camo has an advantage and disadvantage to it. And each of them can either save your life, or help someone else take yours.
>
> And none of the are foolproof. The trick is figuring out how to use their load out to your advantage.

Sure they have flaws but are they balanced out by their pros? No.
Because of this abilities such as Camo are very Overpowered. Playing against a team of players using Jet Pack, Camo, PV ect is beyond infuriating and I refuse to sink that low in order to compete hence why I don’t like Infinity Slayer.

It’s not fun playing against Camo campers and likewise I can imagine it isn’t fun for them either. A Camo camper sits at a distance and picks you off like a sitting duck (sounds fun and rewarding right?). The result is inevitable; death and a game that will drive away 95% of the long time fans in weeks. It’s a selfish act. Don’t be that guy…

I completely agree that playing against a team all using PV, JP and AC is annoying as hell. The fact that they are the most commonly chosen surely says something that they are the best AA’s.

Unfortunately Zealous, the problem is people DO like playing like that… Literally sitting for the game with Camo on, sat at the back, sniping away, often in an objective gametype.

I don’t like to generalise but can always tell who the Camo Sniper is when you’re playing a team on Ragnarok CTF and that one person has a 5KD while his team has 1.5… but that’s just my two cents.

Jetpack is good for mobility to getting to certain spots quickly. When used during a shootout, the user becomes an extremely easy target and is often shot out of the sky.

Thruster Pack is good for evading snipers, spatter-kills, and grenades, but it won’t get you very far.

Promethean Vision is cheap–very cheap–but everyone knows who has it by the sound and the blip on the radar, and knowing is half the battle. Opponents know the user is usually crouched around the corner. Besides, whether or not you can see my silhouette, there’s a red dot on my radar that tells me exactly where you are as well.

Hologram is useful until someone sees it being used, and holograms don’t bunny-hop the entire map like most players do. Although that second of hesitation while you try to decide which is the real spartan can be deadly.

Hardlight Shield is an invitation for grenades and melee attacks, but good for ranged fire.

Regeneration Shield keeps your shields charging but challenges all opponents to prevent that … it’s a giant green target for grenades.

Active Camo You’re off radar (those blue blips only tell us what we already know), invisible, immune to aim-assist, melee’s don’t seem to lock or connect … there’s little to counter it other than seeing the person use it, or seeing their shields charging whilst camo’d, but then they just sprint around a corner and crouch with their sticky grenade at the ready waiting for you. It’s the cheapest of all.

In the first three Halo games, the two abilities you could pick up were Active Camo and Overshield. Imagine if they added “Overshield” as a loadout option!

OP, I actually have no problem with the Active Camo, tbh. However, there are players who will abuse such a thing, but I think it should remain an AA. Just want to point out, even if some of us dislike loadouts, with AA’s, perks, etc…I doubt 343 will remove that feature in the next title.

> I’ve never seen what the big deal is when people complain about the available load outs.

I hate to admit, but I agree with you 100%. I, for one am a big AC user, and use it “the right way”, yet this issue with players complaining over loadouts, and all its contents is really becoming a drag, IMO.

Either way, it needs some drastic changes. Right now it’s only good for camping, and that’s not how it should be. It should be something you use to sneak around. A stealth tool.

While i’m not sure how this would work (overpowered or underpowered), perhaps making so the faster you move the less camo you use up would work? Also making it so you are completely invisible while walking normally, and only when you sprint make it less camoflauged. Just a thought, though it would be really weird… Obviously this would all be with a general reduction in AA time for camo…

> Promethean Vision is cheap–very cheap–but everyone knows who has it by the sound and the blip on the radar, and knowing is half the battle. Opponents know the user is usually crouched around the corner. Besides, whether or not you can see my silhouette, there’s a red dot on my radar that tells me exactly where you are as well.

PV can be countered quite well with the stealth armor ability. It doesn’t highlight you as an enemy when your scanned, even if your out in the open. I remember running up on a guy using it and he just watched me run toward him. Never fired on me. I just jumped over him and assassinated him before he dropped out of PV. I believe it happened twice in the same match.

> Active Camo You’re off radar (those blue blips only tell us what we already know), invisible, immune to aim-assist, melee’s don’t seem to lock or connect … there’s little to counter it other than seeing the person use it, or seeing their shields charging whilst camo’d, but then they just sprint around a corner and crouch with their sticky grenade at the ready waiting for you. It’s the cheapest of all.

From what I’ve seen, (and experienced) active camo gives a player the false sense of security. The whole “you can’t see me” feeling is really empowering. But on the down side, it also blinds you just as much. The Radar jamming can also mess with the player using AC and the muffled audio can allow players to sneak up on you with out you having a clue that they are there. There have been a few times where I’ve been caught off guard and had my head twisted backwards because I was unaware of what was around me while using AC.

I think this has been taken out of context slightly. I actually really like the idea of Personal Loadouts, being able to choose your weapons, grenades, AA’s etc. This post is only my opinion, just like any other post on these forums. I’m not arguing or advocating removing Personal Loadouts at all, I’m simply stating that I think Active Camo should return to being a powerup as it slows down gameplay and encourages cheap gameplay of “sniper-sitting” and the like.

Martin I have to disagree with you on the Jetpack, people who use it to its maximum effect dont just zoom straight up into the air just to be shot down by a clay pigeon, I’ve seen that argument before. However for a game that places a lot of emphasis on headshots, someone Jetpacking straight above your head means you have a lot of difficulty landing a headshot while they have a much easier time. THAT is why the Jetpack is powerful, not to mention the clear ability to get to Power Weapons much quicker and nagivate the map in a manner that, while not breaking it, certainly bends the rules, think Abandon and Haven for example.

I, too, like personal loadouts. But I disagree with some posters about the AAs.

Acceptable AAs (in my opinion)

Hardlight, Hologram, and Thruster provide a small advantage to the player, but also require some degree of skill to use effectively. I have not found too many (if any) players who consider them to be “game breaking”. Not much rage over the mics about a hardlight user. Thruster has the additional potential to become the sprint replacement. Just design maps for the normal movement speed, give everyone TP, and now sprint is no longer required. Maps will be designed for the actual speed of combat, and those players who feel that a “sprint” feature is a standard FPS feature will also be satisfied. Hologram is cool because it auto-teabags, so it’s a must-have :).

Sentry requires only the tiny skill required to know that placing it in a room where no one will ever go is useless. On the other hand, it doesn’t do much. Still, I don’t really see that adding an AA that shoots for you is a good idea. I would prefer it be removed on principle . . . but honestly haven’t had many issues with it (I could just see it being “upgraded” in H5, though, and becoming a nightmare).

Active Camo

AC, on the other hand, requires no skill to use. It’s maximum effectiveness comes when the player using it is crouched or still and completely outside the actual combat area. On some maps (Ragnarok, Longbow, Meltdown, Vortex), there are areas which are rarely traversed, but have good LOS to important locations. Grab sniper, move to spot, crouch, activate . . . and presto! Best K/D of the match!

The fact that the camo snipers almost always have the best K/D (especially CTF) speaks to the fact that - while a few players may not see the issue - this particular AA grants a very large advantage to those who are happy doing nothing for most of a match. Since most of us did not buy Halo to sit in a corner and press the right trigger every 30 seconds or so, it is likely that much of the fanbase does not find this fun - either doing it or being on the receiving end of it.

Jetpack

I don’t really care whether this was nerfed from Reach; that argument holds no water with me. The problem with Jetpack is twofold:

  1. It allows access to map points and travel routes unavailable to players without it; and,

  2. If used properly, it can be almost unstoppable in 1v1 situations due to the lack of vertical sensitivity of the controller.

#1 is the biggest issue. It makes some maps completely unfun to play because it ruins the flow for which the map was designed. It’s supposed to be risky to get the incineration cannon on Exile, but with jetpack, you can run around to the protected edge of the tent, pop up, grab it, and drop back down with far less risk than the designed, exposed route on top of the tent between the sniper platforms. On Ragnarok you can get on top of rocks such that you are almost impossible to shoot without a sniper rifle. On Solace you can blast up on either side of the bases and be completely protected from enemy fire by the glass. On Scythe you can get to the upper walkways without having to go up the ramps and risk being shot by someone in the adjacent room.

#2 is significant as well. The most effective jetpack users are ones who use it to pop up from behind cover (Solace and Abandon are very jetpack-friendly in this respect because they are so cluttered) for that final HS at a high enough angular speed that it is impossible for your opponent to keep his reticule on target - regardless of the sensitivity used. This is because the vertical sensitivity is significantly less than the horizontal sensitivity.

Moreover, Jetpack + explosive ordnance is a terrible combination if you are on the receiving end. Without jetpack, you actually have to think about aiming the incineration cannon or rockets on flat ground, and you can’t use them in certain situations (from behind the hill on Ragnarok, for example). You actually have to walk up the hill and get your Spartan high enough on the ridge to prevent hitting the ground in front of you. But with Jetpack, these weapons become nearly unstoppable. Crouch-walk up the hill, grossly aim at the Mantis based on your radar, jump, activate Jetpack, shoot. Mantis destroyer +1. And against infantry, it’s even easier. Aim down, pull trigger.

It doesn’t help that Jetpackers can use frags while popping up, but others can’t use frags against them. Frag + HS from above vs. 4-shot. The winner is not hard to determine.

Jetpack can be utterly game-breaking. While it does require some skill to use well (many players just turn themselves into sitting flying ducks), the advantage received is not commensurate with the skill required to use. It’s just plain unfun to play against.

And lest anyone misunderstand, I actually do pretty well against jetpackers. I don’t even use it in Rock & Rail . . . I just run around on the ground and shoot them out of the air with the railgun. I do better in Rock & Rail (by far) than any other Action Sack gametype, and regularly do better than players whose CSR is well above mine in that playlist (I just suck at the other games in there). So I can and I do shoot them out of the sky. But I don’t like being forced to do it.

Promethean Vision

Many people keep saying that PV isn’t bad because it lets you know where the player using it is. This is true for close-quarters, and I don’t have too much of an issue with it there. But it is entirely untrue for distances greater than the motion tracker range.

Those who use PV well use it to make callouts and line up long shots before the opponent can see them. Think of trying to take the hill on Ragnarok with a PV user on the other side calling out your attack routes to his buddies defending the hill. You can see all the way to the other base with that crap. Or guys calling out locations for the defenders in the bases on Solace (or any other map). Or guys seeing through the gentle hills on Settler lining up shots as you come around the cover, or just using it to spawn-kill. It is impossible to land the first shot when they are already pulling the trigger as soon as you come around cover when all you have is a radar blip and an expanding red circle . . . and if you’re far enough away, you don’t even have that.

This is not fun to play against.

Again, like Jetpack, it does take some skill to use well. However, the skill required is in no way commensurate with the advantage received.

At the end of the day, fun is the actual requirement: does the inclusion of an AA enhance or detract from the enjoyment of the game’s fanbase? If someone designed a sniper game that included AC from the start - and those who bought the game enjoyed it - then there is nothing wrong with AC in that game. But most of us who bought Halo were not expecting X-Ray Vision Camo Sky Snipers 3000, and it detracts from the enjoyment. That is what makes it wrong for Halo.

Skill matching should drive everyone to a 1.0 K/D. Unfortunately, that doesn’t happen with a mixed skill team searching in MM and that can’t happen with a low population. Reality more often produces a mixed skill game. The most fun games I’ve played were where everyone was more or less on an equal footing.

With imperfect skill matching, AAs give the lesser skilled a chance - real or perceived. The higher skilled rage over AAs because the lesser skilled aren’t dutifully lining up to pad their stats. The higher skilled rage over AAs because the lesser skilled can interfere with their map dominance.

Lopsided player skill and map knowledge can produce spawn trappers and vehicle whores, which ruin far more games and hurt the population more than loadout AAs. Classic AA map pickups reward the skillful, who pad their stats at the expense of the less skillful. Loadout AAs help mitigate that advantage.

Skill matching should drive everyone to a 1.0 K/D. It’s lopsided skill matching that hurts the population. Not AAs.

> Stuff

Sorry, but I (and the record of complaints in this forum) disagree. Rage against certain AAs existed back when H4 had 100,000+ simultaneous players and teams were pretty evenly matched; it exists now; and it will continue to exist until H4 is no longer an active game.

Some AAs are fine. Others are not. And dislike of them has nothing to do with skill matching.

Active camo is not overpowered. Jetpack, Promethean vision and thruster pack are much better AA’s. It’s extremely rare that I run into a good player who uses AC. It’s the go to AA for stat padders and guys who like to camp around corners. Camo boltshot/sniper is annoying, but it’s not going to win them any games.

I just want to add that thruster pack is one of the best AA’s, many people seem to underestimate it. Some of the best players in the game use it. Losing a BR battle? Thruster is a get out of jail free card. It also makes you a CQC ninja, it’s very easy to juke the enemy. Thruster pack is the best AA on haven, no question.

> Active camo is not overpowered.

The question is not whether it is OP/UP. The question is whether its existence results in gameplay that tends to drive players away. Whether it is objectively balanced is irrelevant if it is still capable of frustrating players to the point where they’d rather play a different game.

> It’s extremely rare that I run into a good player who uses AC.

Of course–the tactic you have to employ to use AC to its fullest potential is not an effective tactic at higher levels of play. In other words, a player has more potential for effectiveness without AC than with it. However, that tactic can instantly make an player who is incapable of having a meaningful effect have a somewhat meaningful effect.

To put it another way, Active Camo can instantly make a player 50% effective (just to give it a number) regardless of skill. In order to move past that 50%, you have to ditch the AC. The unfairness comes from the fact that a player who is 50% effective due to skill can be matched by a player who is normally only 10% effective due to skill and with Active Camo becomes 50%. (It’s a crude example, but I hope it gets my point across.)

Of course, all of this only address the issue of the AC AA being OP. As CAB0OSE said, more important is whether or not it’s fun to play against. Think of playing against a player who is Camo Sniping as playing against a player who is spamming Pikachu’s down+B thunder attack in Super Smash Bros.