About all this "delay-dont delay" thing

Do all of you who want the full game to be delayed actually want it delayed so it is “complete” for other players or is it just for you?? Because remember, there are a lot more people who already want the game to release and a full delay will affect everyone, not only the ones who want it delayed. Campaign is there, MP is there, gameplay is there, the core game is there, and (a lot of) people are fine with that stuff, so for people saying “muh halo 5 launch again 342 bad”, this is far from being that (we are literally getting a BTB flight in the near future, something missing from Halo 5 at launch) and you know it.

If you are in the second group of people and just care about your personal experience, easiest thing you can do to delay your own experience. Whats that?? Well, wait until those 2 things are in the game so you dont affect all the other people who are perfectly fine without those 2 things. No one is forcing you to buy the game day-one, and even if you want to do that, you can also wait to play the game until those things are added (if you are that much of an extremist), plus GamePass users dont even need to worry about that because its basically free for them

Adressing some other BS that somehow emerged from this crap: just because those 2 things that dont affect the base game at all arent at launch, it doesnt mean the whole game is incomplete, no matter how much you want it to be. 2 things dont represent the whole game, and the´ve never done so

> 2535424229992654;1:
> 2 things dont represent the whole game, and the´ve never done so

Except they’re both staple features of the franchise and 343 said in the past the game would launch with Campaign Coop.

> 2533274830294676;2:
> > 2535424229992654;1:
> > 2 things dont represent the whole game, and the´ve never done so
>
> Except they’re both staple features of the franchise and 343 said in the past the game would launch with Campaign Coop.

Yes, to a degree. But I have to agree with the OP, most of the people complaining because it affects their experience, and not the experience of the whole. I really don’t see it being justified to wait 6+ months instead of the current 3 just because of something most people aren’t even gonna do at launch.

> 2533274830294676;2:
> > 2535424229992654;1:
> > 2 things dont represent the whole game, and the´ve never done so
>
> Except they’re both staple features of the franchise and 343 said in the past the game would launch with Campaign Coop.

I would say Campaign Coop is the staple feature since it’s been included from the very beginning. Forge was introduced in Halo 3

> 2535424229992654;1:
> Do all of you who want the full game to be delayed actually want it delayed so it is “complete” for other players or is it just for you??

Both.

Did anybody ever think of that the campaign needs to be changed if some of the levels don’t work in coop?
Level design needs to be adjusted if it’s too easy to get out of bounds with a second player.
Spawns and scripts have to be changed if they glitch out in coop.
Etc, etc.

It’s not just “I can’t play the game how I want so nobody should play the game how they want”.

Solo Campaign and Coop Campaign are the same game. If one isn’t finished, neither is the other.

> 2533274830294676;2:
> > 2535424229992654;1:
> > 2 things dont represent the whole game, and the´ve never done so
>
> Except they’re both staple features of the franchise and 343 said in the past the game would launch with Campaign Coop.

Again, none of the games are defined only by those 2 things. What has defined past games are their gameplay, story, and multiplayer, WHICH ARE THE CORE OF THE GAME AND ARE IN INFINITE. A staple feature is something that the game needs one way or another, otherwise it wont work. Can you play the campaign without coop?? Of course you can. Can you enjoy al of the multiplayer without forge?? Again, you can.

Just like those 2 things dont represent the whole game, the second group of people that i mentioned that just want it delayed to meet THEIR STANDARDS and say “-Yoink- off” to everyone else dont represent the whole player base, they are just a minority against the mayority that want to play the game this holiday

> 2535424229992654;6:
> What has defined past games are their gameplay, story, and multiplayer, WHICH ARE THE CORE OF THE GAME AND ARE IN INFINITE.

That’s your arbitrary definition.

> 2535424229992654;6:
> A staple feature is something that the game needs one way or another, otherwise it wont work. Can you play the campaign without coop?? Of course you can. Can you enjoy al of the multiplayer without forge?? Again, you can.

Can you play the campaign without a main menu? Of course you can. So there’s no need to have that one at launch in the future, just immediately start the campaign when the game boots up.

> 2533274801176260;5:
> > 2535424229992654;1:
> > Do all of you who want the full game to be delayed actually want it delayed so it is “complete” for other players or is it just for you??
>
> Both.
>
> Did anybody ever think of that the campaign needs to be changed if some of the levels don’t work in coop?
> Level design needs to be adjusted if it’s too easy to get out of bounds with a second player.
> Spawns and scripts have to be changed if they glitch out in coop.
> Etc, etc.
>
> It’s not just “I can’t play the game how I want so nobody should play the game how they want”.
>
> Solo Campaign and Coop Campaign are the same game. If one isn’t finished, neither is the other.

While what you said is absolutely right, there are many reasons the Co-op Campaign isn’t working, such as connectivity issues, or getting AI to respond to more than 1 player correctly.

There exists a possibility where the Solo campaign is complete, they just can’t get the Co-op working. If this is the case, I support a 21 release, and Co-op can come later when it’s working.
Am I happy about the situation, heck no. But I’d rather gave the game release if most of the game is complete.

> 2533274810945725;8:
> There exists a possibility where the Solo campaign is complete, they just can’t get the Co-op working. If this is the case, I support a 21 release, and Co-op can come later when it’s working.

A possibility.
Given 343’s track record, I’d rather not take any chances.

> 2535424229992654;1:
> Do all of you who want the full game to be delayed actually want it delayed so it is “complete” for other players or is it just for you?? Because remember, there are a lot more people who already want the game to release and a full delay will affect everyone, not only the ones who want it delayed. Campaign is there, MP is there, gameplay is there, the core game is there, and (a lot of) people are fine with that stuff, so for people saying “muh halo 5 launch again 342 bad”, this is far from being that (we are literally getting a BTB flight in the near future, something missing from Halo 5 at launch) and you know it.
>
> If you are in the second group of people and just care about your personal experience, easiest thing you can do to delay your own experience. Whats that?? Well, wait until those 2 things are in the game so you dont affect all the other people who are perfectly fine without those 2 things. No one is forcing you to buy the game day-one, and even if you want to do that, you can also wait to play the game until those things are added (if you are that much of an extremist), plus GamePass users dont even need to worry about that because its basically free for them
>
> Adressing some other BS that somehow emerged from this crap: just because those 2 things that dont affect the base game at all arent at launch, it doesnt mean the whole game is incomplete, no matter how much you want it to be. 2 things dont represent the whole game, and the´ve never done so

Here is the problem and solution. Halo infinite is two games. Campaign and multiplayer. MP is free. So whatever it can launch this year, not having forge sucks, and it will cause the initial player base to drop much more than if forge was day one.

But campaign Co Op? I’m not going to pay for a Co Op Campaign that doesn’t have Co Op in it at day one. And yeah sure you can play Halo alone, single player. But since halo CE I’ve played every halo co Op. If it wasn’t for Halo Co Op I wouldn’t have gotten into halo the way I did. And fell in love with it. Sorry but Co Op must be in the campaign for me to buy the campaign. Campaign must be delayed. MP could come out tomorrow and I wouldn’t care. Campaign above all else.

> 2533274801176260;9:
> > 2533274810945725;8:
> > There exists a possibility where the Solo campaign is complete, they just can’t get the Co-op working. If this is the case, I support a 21 release, and Co-op can come later when it’s working.
>
> A possibility.
> Given 343’s track record, I’d rather not take any chances.

I know where you’re coming from, Infinite is starting to sound like Halo 5, and I’m not liking it.

But to quote Joe Staten; “save systems and all the technology that drives this more non-linear experience, and in the co-op experience that’s even more complicated. That’s another reason why it’s going to take longer, just to make sure it’s quality.”

Obviously, this could just be PR dribble to make it sound better than it is. But at face value, it sounds more like technical issues surrounding how the gameplay experience talks to the user interaction/menu side of the game, rather than surface level gameplay functionality of the campaign itself.

for me we have waited long enough for the release of infinite, i think 343 has had time to finish it, but if 343 has to put the campaign on hold for the release of the game because they want to finalize it but the multiplayer is available, it doesn’t bother me.

> 2533274810945725;11:
> > 2533274801176260;9:
> > > 2533274810945725;8:
> > > There exists a possibility where the Solo campaign is complete, they just can’t get the Co-op working. If this is the case, I support a 21 release, and Co-op can come later when it’s working.
> >
> > A possibility.
> > Given 343’s track record, I’d rather not take any chances.
>
> I know where you’re coming from, Infinite is starting to sound like Halo 5, and I’m not liking it.
>
> But to quote Joe Staten; “save systems and all the technology that drives this more non-linear experience, and in the co-op experience that’s even more complicated. That’s another reason why it’s going to take longer, just to make sure it’s quality.”
>
> Obviously, this could just be PR dribble to make it sound better than it is. But at face value, it sounds more like technical issues surrounding how the gameplay experience talks to the user interaction side of the game, rather than surface level gameplay functionality.

That doesn’t disprove the possibility that changes made to the coop campaign will also have repercussions on the solo campaign, though.
What if they have to cut parts of the nonlinearity because it doesn’t work in coop?
Somebody on these forums (don’t remember who) made the hypothesis that if there’s an objective like “take out 5 banished bases” the game couldn’t keep track of different players’ progress during coop. (Just a hypothesis, I know, but bear with me for a minute.)
Now let’s say they can’t get it to work and need to redesign the mission? Cut checkpoints in between the various bases? Or remove the individual bases altogether and merge them into one single base that can be synchronised across different players’ progress?
Once even only part of the game is out, they can’t change the single player anymore and they need to address issues like these within coop only. But if they can still change both sides of the experience, it’s possible to design around these issues and make a mission that works in both solo and coop.

Here is the thing that I like about the upcoming Halo Infinite. I really like that Joseph Staten, Bonnie Ross and their team at 343 Industries are focusing on the Single Player Campaign levels and the Multiplayer levels in Halo Infinite. That’s the most important thing to do first. They need to be sure that the Halo Infinite single player campaign levels and multiplayer levels have the best quality, while at the same time they also need to be sure that the game must have the best experience. I am happy that they are focusing on that currently.

At the same time, this can also give Joseph Staten, Bonnie Ross and their team at 343 Industries more time planning to release the Co-op Campaign levels and Forge in future Halo Infinite updates. Personally I don’t want to see the Halo Infinite Co-op Campaign levels and Forge that are halfway finished especially when it comes to bugs and glitches.

> 2533274830294676;2:
> > 2535424229992654;1:
> > 2 things dont represent the whole game, and the´ve never done so
>
> Except they’re both staple features of the franchise and 343 said in the past the game would launch with Campaign Coop.

That was over a year ago, before the backlash from E3. They had to change so much stuff after that

> 2533274801176260;13:
> > 2533274810945725;11:
> > > 2533274801176260;9:
> > > > 2533274810945725;8:
> > > > There exists a possibility where the Solo campaign is complete, they just can’t get the Co-op working. If this is the case, I support a 21 release, and Co-op can come later when it’s working.
> > >
> > > A possibility.
> > > Given 343’s track record, I’d rather not take any chances.
> >
> > I know where you’re coming from, Infinite is starting to sound like Halo 5, and I’m not liking it.
> >
> > But to quote Joe Staten; “save systems and all the technology that drives this more non-linear experience, and in the co-op experience that’s even more complicated. That’s another reason why it’s going to take longer, just to make sure it’s quality.”
> >
> > Obviously, this could just be PR dribble to make it sound better than it is. But at face value, it sounds more like technical issues surrounding how the gameplay experience talks to the user interaction side of the game, rather than surface level gameplay functionality.
>
> That doesn’t disprove the possibility that changes made to the coop campaign will also have repercussions on the solo campaign, though.
> What if they have to cut parts of the nonlinearity because it doesn’t work in coop?
> Somebody on these forums (don’t remember who) made the hypothesis that if there’s an objective like “take out 5 banished bases” the game couldn’t keep track of different players’ progress during coop. (Just a hypothesis, I know, but bear with me for a minute.)
> Now let’s say they can’t get it to work and need to redesign the mission? Cut checkpoints in between the various bases? Or remove the individual bases altogether and merge them into one single base that can be synchronised across different players’ progress?
> Once even only part of the game is out, they can’t change the single player anymore and they need to address issues like these within coop only. But if they can still change both sides of the experience, it’s possible to design around these issues and make a mission that works in both solo and coop.

I agree that the non linear campaign will present some issues when it comes Co-op.
However their hypothesis that the game wouldn’t be able to track multiple players engaging with multiple objectives, is moot.
Halo has been tracking multiple objectives in the field for over a decade. Territories in BTB has 5 zones that can be engaged with my multiple players at once.
Even Warzone proves that 343 are capable of handling multiple enemies and objectives all lining up for way more than 4 players.

The reality is, that no one outside 343 really has any idea of how the will work, and specifically how campaign will function, other than what we have been briefly shown. Even that is subject to change given the delay.
At some point presumably early in development, when they decided to go with a more open-world approach, the question would have been raised about how Co-op would work as well. Throughout development, when it comes to level design, enemy forces, etc, they would have made sure that it would balanced for multiple players.

The idea that the campaign would be mostly complete before they started considering how Co-op play would effect it, doesn’t seem very logical.

> 2533274810945725;16:
> At some point presumably early in development, when they decided to go with a more open-world approach, the question would have been raised about how Co-op would work as well. Throughout development, when it comes to level design, enemy forces, etc, they would have made sure that it would balanced for multiple players.

The promise to bring back splitscreen coop only came in 2017, potentially two years into development. Yeah, I know, splitscreen is not the same thing as coop and even H5G had online coop, but with Infinite being designed - at least as far as we know - around Chief as a lone Spartan on a Halo, I wouldn’t doubt the game initially being intended only for one player. Especially with a (semi) open-world approach. (Not that it weren’t possible, there’s plenty of open world games with coop, even local, but I have learned to accept that 343 is willing to go the path of least resistance.)

> 2533274810945725;16:
> The idea that the campaign would be mostly complete before they started considering how Co-op play would effect it, doesn’t seem very logical.

Then why isn’t it ready? Simple glitches don’t require three-month-delays. This points toward a significantly more systemic issue of the singleplayer’s design being fundamentally incompatible with the concept of coop.

> 2533274801176260;17:
> > 2533274810945725;16:
> > At some point presumably early in development, when they decided to go with a more open-world approach, the question would have been raised about how Co-op would work as well. Throughout development, when it comes to level design, enemy forces, etc, they would have made sure that it would balanced for multiple players.
>
> The promise to bring back splitscreen coop only came in 2017, potentially two years into development. Yeah, I know, splitscreen is not the same thing as coop and even H5G had online coop, but with Infinite being designed - at least as far as we know - around Chief as a lone Spartan on a Halo, I wouldn’t doubt the game initially being intended only for one player. Especially with a (semi) open-world approach. (Not that it weren’t possible, there’s plenty of open world games with coop, even local, but I have learned to accept that 343 is willing to go the path of least resistance.)
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274810945725;16:
> > The idea that the campaign would be mostly complete before they started considering how Co-op play would effect it, doesn’t seem very logical.
>
> Then why isn’t it ready? Simple glitches don’t require three-month-delays. This points toward a significantly more systemic issue of the singleplayer’s design being fundamentally incompatible with the concept of coop.

I highly doubt the game was ever being designed for purely one player outside of the narrative experience for Single Player like normal. You are generalizing “simple glitches”. I work in the tech industry and I can promise you “simple glitches” can exist for longer than you think due to the complexity of finding the issue. Once you find the issue you must change it without effecting other aspects of the engine and/or system. You are ignoring technical issues like tethering distance, performance across multiple systems, stability, connectivity, and many other technical hurdles for Co-op. It seems like you lack the base understanding of software development and that’s fine, but you are dismissing completely rational possibilities.

> 2533274792737987;18:
> I work in the tech industry and I can promise you “simple glitches” can exist for longer than you think due to the complexity of finding the issue.

So do I, and if there’s a “technical glitch” that warrants a delay of three entire months for a significant part of the software, we’re pulling the plug on all of it because there’s no way of telling what such a big issue has on the entire rest of the program. Even if there turns out to not be any effect, you only know that after extensive testing.
As a project lead, I would never allow even part of a software to be released if the other half of it - which uses the exact same resources - isn’t working.

> 2533274837720524;3:
> > 2533274830294676;2:
> > > 2535424229992654;1:
> > > 2 things dont represent the whole game, and the´ve never done so
> >
> > Except they’re both staple features of the franchise and 343 said in the past the game would launch with Campaign Coop.
>
> Yes, to a degree. But I have to agree with the OP, most of the people complaining because it affects their experience, and not the experience of the whole. I really don’t see it being justified to wait 6+ months instead of the current 3 just because of something most people aren’t even gonna do at launch.

This whole argument is so hypocritical, isn’t is selfish cause its okay for YOU, not the people that want their first experience in campaign to be in coop with their friends to play this new story for chief? Forge is a pillar of halo as is the co-op, you’re paying for this, I’m tired of buying incomplete games that get “fixed later”