A Side Effect of Enhanced Mobility We Can Agree On

Games Halo Infinite
1

Sprint, Slide, Clamber, and ADS are back in Halo Infinite, which means map design will be inevitably affected. Not good. Why?

We won’t be getting fan favorite classic maps from the past Halo games. At least, we won’t be getting the 1:1 copies of the original maps. If we ever get them, they will almost certainly be stretched and warped to accommodate for these abilities. The reason is because abilities like clamber will break the flow of map traversal in maps such as Lockout, Guardian, or any other map that relied on crouch jumping. If the maps are 1:1, then clamber will allow players to pretty much go anywhere and ruin the pacing of the map. Also, it will certainly make it ridiculously easy to make jumps that were dubbed “skill jumps” in the past. Sprint will likely cause the maps to be stretched out. If the maps aren’t stretched out, then be prepared for players sprinting around and going for double melee kills (This is assuming sprint does give the player a significant boost in speed. We don’t know for sure yet. Then again, why include sprint if it doesn’t give a boost in speed?). ADS will certainly throw the weapon balancing out the window (assuming it behaves like Halo 5, which it likely will, because again, why keep ADS in if there is no accuracy boost?).

If you’re thinking who cares? Well, I’d say a lot of us care. From what I’ve seen, most people agree map design was top notch in Halos 2-3, with their skill jumps, environmental features, and overall pacing. Seeing as how this is a 10-year game, it would make sense for 343i to bring back classic maps eventually. Remember the Frankenstein-remake of Midship in Halo 5? Truth played nothing like Midship due to Halo 5’s Spartan abilities. Of course, those abilities will be toned down in Infinite (except clamber), but I’d say they will still have an effect on classic maps. Guess we will have to wait and see.

How do you think 343i will solve this potential problem?

2

> 2533274857577417;1:
> Sprint, Slide, Clamber, and ADS are back in Halo Infinite, which means map design will be inevitably affected. Not good. Why?
>
> We won’t be getting fan favorite classic maps from the past Halo games. At least, we won’t be getting the 1:1 copies of the original maps. If we ever get them, they will almost certainly be stretched and warped to accommodate for these abilities. The reason is because abilities like clamber will break the flow of map traversal in maps such as Lockout, Guardian, or any other map that relied on crouch jumping. If the maps are 1:1, then clamber will allow players to pretty much go anywhere and ruin the pacing of the map. Also, it will certainly make it ridiculously easy to make jumps that were dubbed “skill jumps” in the past. Sprint will likely cause the maps to be stretched out. If the maps aren’t stretched out, then be prepared for players sprinting around and going for double melee kills (This is assuming sprint does give the player a significant boost in speed. We don’t know for sure yet. Then again, why include sprint if it doesn’t give a boost in speed?). ADS will certainly throw the weapon balancing out the window (assuming it behaves like Halo 5, which it likely will, because again, why keep ADS in if there is no accuracy boost?).
>
> If you’re thinking who cares? Well, I’d say a lot of us care. From what I’ve seen, most people agree map design was top notch in Halos 2-3, with their skill jumps, environmental features, and overall pacing. Seeing as how this is a 10-year game, it would make sense for 343i to bring back classic maps eventually. Remember the Frankenstein-remake of Midship in Halo 5? Truth played nothing like Midship due to Halo 5’s Spartan abilities. Of course, those abilities will be toned down in Infinite (except clamber), but I’d say they will still have an effect on classic maps. Guess we will have to wait and see.
>
> How do you think 343i will solve this potential problem?

I honestly don’t see this as bad, just different. its a different game, and the map accomodates for the mechanics. there won’t be skill jumps like halo 2, but there will be skill jumps that weren’t doable in halo 2 or 3. however I could see classic maps being brought back, if at least through forge, and the movement being set to halo 2 standards.

3

> 2533274857577417;1:
> How do you think 343i will solve this potential problem?

They probably won’t bother.

Also what the heck is ADS?

4

The best way to solve the problem is to just make original maps that are designed to work around the current movement mechanics.

As for the old maps…

Sprint certainly stretched the maps. That’s ok for a re-imagining the maps… but not if you want the ‘classic’ experience. Regardless it looks like sprint has been toned down a lot in Infinite… so maybe the older maps will play a little better.

Clamber probably isn’t a huge issue. Are there many jumps you can clamber that you couldn’t do with trick jumping anyway? And while clambering you lose speed and can’t shoot… so you don’t get to run full speed around the map anyway.

I think the biggest problem in Halo 5 in regards to movement was the combination of sprint -> jump -> thrust - which made it very difficult to control movement flow. It was just a little too OP. But without thrust this is no longer an issue (as an aside I would have kept thrust but just limited it to lateral movement). Maps should be easier to run.

I don’t get the fuss about ADS. It’s obviously fine for the weapons that are designed to benefit… but for others the relatively small boost in damage / accuracy is reduced by the slower movement and reduced vision / radar.

And yes, everyone cares. Who doesn’t like a touch of nostalgia. But the reason those old maps worked so well (and are remembered fondly) are that they were designed to work with the movement mechanics of the time. The game has moved on and maybe we just need to let go. We certainly wouldn’t expect the old mechanics to work well on the modern maps of today - so it’s silly to expect the reverse.

5

Couldn’t they just keep the maps as they were and allow clamber to work in conjunction with crouch jumping? Crouch jumping could be beneficial as there’s no animation that breaks your ability to shoot.

6

> 2533274924310758;2:
> > 2533274857577417;1:
> > Sprint, Slide, Clamber, and ADS are back in Halo Infinite, which means map design will be inevitably affected. Not good. Why?
> >
> > We won’t be getting fan favorite classic maps from the past Halo games. At least, we won’t be getting the 1:1 copies of the original maps. If we ever get them, they will almost certainly be stretched and warped to accommodate for these abilities. The reason is because abilities like clamber will break the flow of map traversal in maps such as Lockout, Guardian, or any other map that relied on crouch jumping. If the maps are 1:1, then clamber will allow players to pretty much go anywhere and ruin the pacing of the map. Also, it will certainly make it ridiculously easy to make jumps that were dubbed “skill jumps” in the past. Sprint will likely cause the maps to be stretched out. If the maps aren’t stretched out, then be prepared for players sprinting around and going for double melee kills (This is assuming sprint does give the player a significant boost in speed. We don’t know for sure yet. Then again, why include sprint if it doesn’t give a boost in speed?). ADS will certainly throw the weapon balancing out the window (assuming it behaves like Halo 5, which it likely will, because again, why keep ADS in if there is no accuracy boost?).
> >
> > If you’re thinking who cares? Well, I’d say a lot of us care. From what I’ve seen, most people agree map design was top notch in Halos 2-3, with their skill jumps, environmental features, and overall pacing. Seeing as how this is a 10-year game, it would make sense for 343i to bring back classic maps eventually. Remember the Frankenstein-remake of Midship in Halo 5? Truth played nothing like Midship due to Halo 5’s Spartan abilities. Of course, those abilities will be toned down in Infinite (except clamber), but I’d say they will still have an effect on classic maps. Guess we will have to wait and see.
> >
> > How do you think 343i will solve this potential problem?
>
> I honestly don’t see this as bad, just different. its a different game, and the map accomodates for the mechanics. there won’t be skill jumps like halo 2, but there will be skill jumps that weren’t doable in halo 2 or 3. however I could see classic maps being brought back, if at least through forge, and the movement being set to halo 2 standards.

I appreciate the input. The thing is, we want to play the classic maps because of how well they played before (at least I do). Having a new map that resembles the general shape of the original isn’t good enough. The classic map can have some tweaks to change it up a bit, but not to the extent of warping the entire map to make it work with the new abilities. I was a huge fan of Midship, but Truth was just not as fun because it wasn’t as fast paced as Midship due to the new map being stretched out.
I’m not sure how skill jumps are possible anymore with clamber. It’s designed to prevent you from messing up a jump.
It would be nice having Halo 2 movement to work on these classic maps, but I don’t see it happening. It would create inconsistency within the Infinite experience.

7

> 2533274830960680;3:
> > 2533274857577417;1:
> > How do you think 343i will solve this potential problem?
>
> They probably won’t bother.
>
> Also what the heck is ADS?

Aim Down Sights. It grants every weapon a boost in accuracy. So an assault rifle can outperform a battle rifle at medium range.

> 2585548714655118;4:
> The best way to solve the problem is to just make original maps that are designed to work around the current movement mechanics.
>
> As for the old maps…
>
> Sprint certainly stretched the maps. That’s ok for a re-imagining the maps… but not if you want the ‘classic’ experience. Regardless it looks like sprint has been toned down a lot in Infinite… so maybe the older maps will play a little better.
>
> Clamber probably isn’t a huge issue. Are there many jumps you can clamber that you couldn’t do with trick jumping anyway? And while clambering you lose speed and can’t shoot… so you don’t get to run full speed around the map anyway.
>
> I think the biggest problem in Halo 5 in regards to movement was the combination of sprint → jump → thrust - which made it very difficult to control movement flow. It was just a little too OP. But without thrust this is no longer an issue (as an aside I would have kept thrust but just limited it to lateral movement). Maps should be easier to run.
>
> I don’t get the fuss about ADS. It’s obviously fine for the weapons that are designed to benefit… but for others the relatively small boost in damage / accuracy is reduced by the slower movement and reduced vision / radar.
>
> And yes, everyone cares. Who doesn’t like a touch of nostalgia. But the reason those old maps worked so well (and are remembered fondly) are that they were designed to work with the movement mechanics of the time. The game has moved on and maybe we just need to let go. We certainly wouldn’t expect the old mechanics to work well on the modern maps of today - so it’s silly to expect the reverse.

What I’m trying to say is people were fans of those classic maps because of how well they played. If the maps have to accommodate for the new abilities, they wouldn’t play the same way, so the intricate map design is lost and it feels like an entirely new map.
Good point on how Halo 5’s movement made it a lot easier to break map design. At least Infinite won’t allow combos like that.
My problem with ADS is how it allows an assault rifle to outperform a battle rifle at medium range, with it being an auto and being a lot stronger than it was in previous games. Interesting point on the drawbacks of ADS, though.

> 2533274823629657;5:
> Couldn’t they just keep the maps as they were and allow clamber to work in conjunction with crouch jumping? Crouch jumping could be beneficial as there’s no animation that breaks your ability to shoot.

That could work, but again skill jumps are no longer skill jumps because clamber lets anyone pull of the jumps with ease, so the skill ceiling is lowered. But yeah, as you said they are drawbacks to clamber so maybe it can work.

8

> 2533274857577417;6:
> > 2533274924310758;2:
> > > 2533274857577417;1:
> > > Sprint, Slide, Clamber, and ADS are back in Halo Infinite, which means map design will be inevitably affected. Not good. Why?
> > >
> > > We won’t be getting fan favorite classic maps from the past Halo games. At least, we won’t be getting the 1:1 copies of the original maps. If we ever get them, they will almost certainly be stretched and warped to accommodate for these abilities. The reason is because abilities like clamber will break the flow of map traversal in maps such as Lockout, Guardian, or any other map that relied on crouch jumping. If the maps are 1:1, then clamber will allow players to pretty much go anywhere and ruin the pacing of the map. Also, it will certainly make it ridiculously easy to make jumps that were dubbed “skill jumps” in the past. Sprint will likely cause the maps to be stretched out. If the maps aren’t stretched out, then be prepared for players sprinting around and going for double melee kills (This is assuming sprint does give the player a significant boost in speed. We don’t know for sure yet. Then again, why include sprint if it doesn’t give a boost in speed?). ADS will certainly throw the weapon balancing out the window (assuming it behaves like Halo 5, which it likely will, because again, why keep ADS in if there is no accuracy boost?).
> > >
> > > If you’re thinking who cares? Well, I’d say a lot of us care. From what I’ve seen, most people agree map design was top notch in Halos 2-3, with their skill jumps, environmental features, and overall pacing. Seeing as how this is a 10-year game, it would make sense for 343i to bring back classic maps eventually. Remember the Frankenstein-remake of Midship in Halo 5? Truth played nothing like Midship due to Halo 5’s Spartan abilities. Of course, those abilities will be toned down in Infinite (except clamber), but I’d say they will still have an effect on classic maps. Guess we will have to wait and see.
> > >
> > > How do you think 343i will solve this potential problem?
> >
> > I honestly don’t see this as bad, just different. its a different game, and the map accomodates for the mechanics. there won’t be skill jumps like halo 2, but there will be skill jumps that weren’t doable in halo 2 or 3. however I could see classic maps being brought back, if at least through forge, and the movement being set to halo 2 standards.
>
> I appreciate the input. The thing is, we want to play the classic maps because of how well they played before (at least I do). Having a new map that resembles the general shape of the original isn’t good enough. The classic map can have some tweaks to change it up a bit, but not to the extent of warping the entire map to make it work with the new abilities. I was a huge fan of Midship, but Truth was just not as fun because it wasn’t as fast paced as Midship due to the new map being stretched out.
> I’m not sure how skill jumps are possible anymore with clamber. It’s designed to prevent you from messing up a jump.
> It would be nice having Halo 2 movement to work on these classic maps, but I don’t see it happening. It would create inconsistency within the Infinite experience.

not really, clamber isnt decided to help you not fail jumps, it helps you, uh, climb. it doesnt teleport you to a platform you missed. and this is the thing that bugs me the most about people that say things like you said. if you want to play halo 3 maps, with halo 3 movement, halo 3 mechanics, and halo 3 everything, then the answer isn’t playing halo infinite. every game will be different, and if you don’t like that, you’re in extreme luck because not many games have as big a population in games that are over a decade old. but as i said, given how much 343 cares about forge and custom games, I don’t doubt they will include a way to replicate halo 2 or 3 in infinite. theres a ton of ways to play what you want to play, and the solutions are right in front of your eyes.

9

> 2533274924310758;8:
> > 2533274857577417;6:
> > > 2533274924310758;2:
> > > > 2533274857577417;1:
> > > > Sprint, Slide, Clamber, and ADS are back in Halo Infinite, which means map design will be inevitably affected. Not good. Why?
> > > >
> > > > We won’t be getting fan favorite classic maps from the past Halo games. At least, we won’t be getting the 1:1 copies of the original maps. If we ever get them, they will almost certainly be stretched and warped to accommodate for these abilities. The reason is because abilities like clamber will break the flow of map traversal in maps such as Lockout, Guardian, or any other map that relied on crouch jumping. If the maps are 1:1, then clamber will allow players to pretty much go anywhere and ruin the pacing of the map. Also, it will certainly make it ridiculously easy to make jumps that were dubbed “skill jumps” in the past. Sprint will likely cause the maps to be stretched out. If the maps aren’t stretched out, then be prepared for players sprinting around and going for double melee kills (This is assuming sprint does give the player a significant boost in speed. We don’t know for sure yet. Then again, why include sprint if it doesn’t give a boost in speed?). ADS will certainly throw the weapon balancing out the window (assuming it behaves like Halo 5, which it likely will, because again, why keep ADS in if there is no accuracy boost?).
> > > >
> > > > If you’re thinking who cares? Well, I’d say a lot of us care. From what I’ve seen, most people agree map design was top notch in Halos 2-3, with their skill jumps, environmental features, and overall pacing. Seeing as how this is a 10-year game, it would make sense for 343i to bring back classic maps eventually. Remember the Frankenstein-remake of Midship in Halo 5? Truth played nothing like Midship due to Halo 5’s Spartan abilities. Of course, those abilities will be toned down in Infinite (except clamber), but I’d say they will still have an effect on classic maps. Guess we will have to wait and see.
> > > >
> > > > How do you think 343i will solve this potential problem?
> > >
> > > I honestly don’t see this as bad, just different. its a different game, and the map accomodates for the mechanics. there won’t be skill jumps like halo 2, but there will be skill jumps that weren’t doable in halo 2 or 3. however I could see classic maps being brought back, if at least through forge, and the movement being set to halo 2 standards.
> >
> > I appreciate the input. The thing is, we want to play the classic maps because of how well they played before (at least I do). Having a new map that resembles the general shape of the original isn’t good enough. The classic map can have some tweaks to change it up a bit, but not to the extent of warping the entire map to make it work with the new abilities. I was a huge fan of Midship, but Truth was just not as fun because it wasn’t as fast paced as Midship due to the new map being stretched out.
> > I’m not sure how skill jumps are possible anymore with clamber. It’s designed to prevent you from messing up a jump.
> > It would be nice having Halo 2 movement to work on these classic maps, but I don’t see it happening. It would create inconsistency within the Infinite experience.
>
> not really, clamber isnt decided to help you not fail jumps, it helps you, uh, climb. it doesnt teleport you to a platform you missed. and this is the thing that bugs me the most about people that say things like you said. if you want to play halo 3 maps, with halo 3 movement, halo 3 mechanics, and halo 3 everything, then the answer isn’t playing halo infinite. every game will be different, and if you don’t like that, you’re in extreme luck because not many games have as big a population in games that are over a decade old. but as i said, given how much 343 cares about forge and custom games, I don’t doubt they will include a way to replicate halo 2 or 3 in infinite. theres a ton of ways to play what you want to play, and the solutions are right in front of your eyes.

But clamber can literally save you from a potential fall if you mess up on a jump. You press A and you are latched onto the platform and are pulled up. I could be misinterpreting what you’re saying, but clamber clearly saves you from failing jumps. You’d have to be really, really bad at making jumps if you fail with clamber being available.
Having to play Halo 3 to play Guardian isn’t a solution. Lots of people want to see classic maps on a new Halo games, remastered and made pretty. Perhaps the new map can have some changes with the new sandbox to make for some interesting gameplay moments.

10

> 2533274857577417;9:
> > 2533274924310758;8:
> > > 2533274857577417;6:
> > > > 2533274924310758;2:
> > > > > 2533274857577417;1:
> > > > > Sprint, Slide, Clamber, and ADS are back in Halo Infinite, which means map design will be inevitably affected. Not good. Why?
> > > > >
> > > > > We won’t be getting fan favorite classic maps from the past Halo games. At least, we won’t be getting the 1:1 copies of the original maps. If we ever get them, they will almost certainly be stretched and warped to accommodate for these abilities. The reason is because abilities like clamber will break the flow of map traversal in maps such as Lockout, Guardian, or any other map that relied on crouch jumping. If the maps are 1:1, then clamber will allow players to pretty much go anywhere and ruin the pacing of the map. Also, it will certainly make it ridiculously easy to make jumps that were dubbed “skill jumps” in the past. Sprint will likely cause the maps to be stretched out. If the maps aren’t stretched out, then be prepared for players sprinting around and going for double melee kills (This is assuming sprint does give the player a significant boost in speed. We don’t know for sure yet. Then again, why include sprint if it doesn’t give a boost in speed?). ADS will certainly throw the weapon balancing out the window (assuming it behaves like Halo 5, which it likely will, because again, why keep ADS in if there is no accuracy boost?).
> > > > >
> > > > > If you’re thinking who cares? Well, I’d say a lot of us care. From what I’ve seen, most people agree map design was top notch in Halos 2-3, with their skill jumps, environmental features, and overall pacing. Seeing as how this is a 10-year game, it would make sense for 343i to bring back classic maps eventually. Remember the Frankenstein-remake of Midship in Halo 5? Truth played nothing like Midship due to Halo 5’s Spartan abilities. Of course, those abilities will be toned down in Infinite (except clamber), but I’d say they will still have an effect on classic maps. Guess we will have to wait and see.
> > > > >
> > > > > How do you think 343i will solve this potential problem?
> > > >
> > > > I honestly don’t see this as bad, just different. its a different game, and the map accomodates for the mechanics. there won’t be skill jumps like halo 2, but there will be skill jumps that weren’t doable in halo 2 or 3. however I could see classic maps being brought back, if at least through forge, and the movement being set to halo 2 standards.
> > >
> > > I appreciate the input. The thing is, we want to play the classic maps because of how well they played before (at least I do). Having a new map that resembles the general shape of the original isn’t good enough. The classic map can have some tweaks to change it up a bit, but not to the extent of warping the entire map to make it work with the new abilities. I was a huge fan of Midship, but Truth was just not as fun because it wasn’t as fast paced as Midship due to the new map being stretched out.
> > > I’m not sure how skill jumps are possible anymore with clamber. It’s designed to prevent you from messing up a jump.
> > > It would be nice having Halo 2 movement to work on these classic maps, but I don’t see it happening. It would create inconsistency within the Infinite experience.
> >
> > not really, clamber isnt decided to help you not fail jumps, it helps you, uh, climb. it doesnt teleport you to a platform you missed. and this is the thing that bugs me the most about people that say things like you said. if you want to play halo 3 maps, with halo 3 movement, halo 3 mechanics, and halo 3 everything, then the answer isn’t playing halo infinite. every game will be different, and if you don’t like that, you’re in extreme luck because not many games have as big a population in games that are over a decade old. but as i said, given how much 343 cares about forge and custom games, I don’t doubt they will include a way to replicate halo 2 or 3 in infinite. theres a ton of ways to play what you want to play, and the solutions are right in front of your eyes.
>
> But clamber can literally save you from a potential fall if you mess up on a jump. You press A and you are latched onto the platform and are pulled up. I could be misinterpreting what you’re saying, but clamber clearly saves you from failing jumps. You’d have to be really, really bad at making jumps if you fail with clamber being available.
> Having to play Halo 3 to play Guardian isn’t a solution. Lots of people want to see classic maps on a new Halo games, remastered and made pretty. Perhaps the new map can have some changes with the new sandbox to make for some interesting gameplay moments.

It comes at a cost of not being able to fire for a second and being vulnerable while you climb.

11

> Good point on how Halo 5’s movement made it a lot easier to break map design. At least Infinite won’t allow combos like that.
> My problem with ADS is how it allows an assault rifle to outperform a battle rifle at medium range, with it being an auto and being a lot stronger than it was in previous games. Interesting point on the drawbacks of ADS, though.

Well the assault rifle was completely useless in the original games along with every other automatic weapon. So the fact that they were actually given a role is better, especially for everyone’s favorite AR start, the BR is no longer the god power weapon of AR starts.
At a certain range the AR was meant to beat the BR.

12

> 2533274924310758;8:
> > 2533274857577417;6:
> > > 2533274924310758;2:
> > > > 2533274857577417;1:
> > > > Sprint, Slide, Clamber, and ADS are back in Halo Infinite, which means map design will be inevitably affected. Not good. Why?
> > > >
> > > > We won’t be getting fan favorite classic maps from the past Halo games. At least, we won’t be getting the 1:1 copies of the original maps. If we ever get them, they will almost certainly be stretched and warped to accommodate for these abilities. The reason is because abilities like clamber will break the flow of map traversal in maps such as Lockout, Guardian, or any other map that relied on crouch jumping. If the maps are 1:1, then clamber will allow players to pretty much go anywhere and ruin the pacing of the map. Also, it will certainly make it ridiculously easy to make jumps that were dubbed “skill jumps” in the past. Sprint will likely cause the maps to be stretched out. If the maps aren’t stretched out, then be prepared for players sprinting around and going for double melee kills (This is assuming sprint does give the player a significant boost in speed. We don’t know for sure yet. Then again, why include sprint if it doesn’t give a boost in speed?). ADS will certainly throw the weapon balancing out the window (assuming it behaves like Halo 5, which it likely will, because again, why keep ADS in if there is no accuracy boost?).
> > > >
> > > > If you’re thinking who cares? Well, I’d say a lot of us care. From what I’ve seen, most people agree map design was top notch in Halos 2-3, with their skill jumps, environmental features, and overall pacing. Seeing as how this is a 10-year game, it would make sense for 343i to bring back classic maps eventually. Remember the Frankenstein-remake of Midship in Halo 5? Truth played nothing like Midship due to Halo 5’s Spartan abilities. Of course, those abilities will be toned down in Infinite (except clamber), but I’d say they will still have an effect on classic maps. Guess we will have to wait and see.
> > > >
> > > > How do you think 343i will solve this potential problem?
>
> not really, clamber isnt decided to help you not fail jumps, it helps you, uh, climb.

inserts link to Halo 5: Guardians beta ViDoc where Frank O’Connor talks about how satisfying it is to go for a jump, miss, and press a button to hit it the way you thought you should’ve

13

This is why we have MCC. I’m no advocate for sprint, but I dont hate it either. Revived Classic maps won’t 1:1 replicas, and some might not be fun anymore for that reason, but you will have (hopefully) forge and the occasional classic playlist (which i know isn’t saying much). I just got to say again as well, Bungie was not good at balancing, and they still aren’t.

What about new maps, original designs that are meant to fit the movement, whos to say skill in movement is dead.

14

> 2533274857577417;7:
> What I’m trying to say is people were fans of those classic maps because of how well they played.

I think what you are saying boils down to is that fans of classic movement appreciated those maps because they were designed to play well with that type of movement.

Chicken and the egg. In this regard, movement comes first… followed by great maps.

15

> 2533274823629657;10:
> > 2533274857577417;9:
> > > 2533274924310758;8:
> > > > 2533274857577417;6:
> > > > > 2533274924310758;2:
> > > > > > 2533274857577417;1:
> > > > > > Sprint, Slide, Clamber, and ADS are back in Halo Infinite, which means map design will be inevitably affected. Not good. Why?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We won’t be getting fan favorite classic maps from the past Halo games. At least, we won’t be getting the 1:1 copies of the original maps. If we ever get them, they will almost certainly be stretched and warped to accommodate for these abilities. The reason is because abilities like clamber will break the flow of map traversal in maps such as Lockout, Guardian, or any other map that relied on crouch jumping. If the maps are 1:1, then clamber will allow players to pretty much go anywhere and ruin the pacing of the map. Also, it will certainly make it ridiculously easy to make jumps that were dubbed “skill jumps” in the past. Sprint will likely cause the maps to be stretched out. If the maps aren’t stretched out, then be prepared for players sprinting around and going for double melee kills (This is assuming sprint does give the player a significant boost in speed. We don’t know for sure yet. Then again, why include sprint if it doesn’t give a boost in speed?). ADS will certainly throw the weapon balancing out the window (assuming it behaves like Halo 5, which it likely will, because again, why keep ADS in if there is no accuracy boost?).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you’re thinking who cares? Well, I’d say a lot of us care. From what I’ve seen, most people agree map design was top notch in Halos 2-3, with their skill jumps, environmental features, and overall pacing. Seeing as how this is a 10-year game, it would make sense for 343i to bring back classic maps eventually. Remember the Frankenstein-remake of Midship in Halo 5? Truth played nothing like Midship due to Halo 5’s Spartan abilities. Of course, those abilities will be toned down in Infinite (except clamber), but I’d say they will still have an effect on classic maps. Guess we will have to wait and see.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How do you think 343i will solve this potential problem?
> > > > >
> > > > > I honestly don’t see this as bad, just different. its a different game, and the map accomodates for the mechanics. there won’t be skill jumps like halo 2, but there will be skill jumps that weren’t doable in halo 2 or 3. however I could see classic maps being brought back, if at least through forge, and the movement being set to halo 2 standards.
> > > >
> > > > I appreciate the input. The thing is, we want to play the classic maps because of how well they played before (at least I do). Having a new map that resembles the general shape of the original isn’t good enough. The classic map can have some tweaks to change it up a bit, but not to the extent of warping the entire map to make it work with the new abilities. I was a huge fan of Midship, but Truth was just not as fun because it wasn’t as fast paced as Midship due to the new map being stretched out.
> > > > I’m not sure how skill jumps are possible anymore with clamber. It’s designed to prevent you from messing up a jump.
> > > > It would be nice having Halo 2 movement to work on these classic maps, but I don’t see it happening. It would create inconsistency within the Infinite experience.
>
> It comes at a cost of not being able to fire for a second and being vulnerable while you climb.

Without clamber, messing up on a jump results in your death. I just think it’s far too forgiving and eliminates the element of skill jumps in maps. Parkour is not as risky as it was in the past.

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> >
>
> Well the assault rifle was completely useless in the original games along with every other automatic weapon. So the fact that they were actually given a role is better, especially for everyone’s favorite AR start, the BR is no longer the god power weapon of AR starts.
> At a certain range the AR was meant to beat the BR.

That’s not true, though. After playing Halo 3’s auto slayer, I noticed how good the assault rifle is up close. Strip shields down and melee. It can easily outperform the battle rifle in close quarters if handled by an experienced player. From what I’ve seen in Infinite’s demo, the AR is too strong now.

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> > > > > Sprint, Slide, Clamber, and ADS are back in Halo Infinite, which means map design will be inevitably affected. Not good. Why?
> > > > >
> > > > > We won’t be getting fan favorite classic maps from the past Halo games. At least, we won’t be getting the 1:1 copies of the original maps. If we ever get them, they will almost certainly be stretched and warped to accommodate for these abilities. The reason is because abilities like clamber will break the flow of map traversal in maps such as Lockout, Guardian, or any other map that relied on crouch jumping. If the maps are 1:1, then clamber will allow players to pretty much go anywhere and ruin the pacing of the map. Also, it will certainly make it ridiculously easy to make jumps that were dubbed “skill jumps” in the past. Sprint will likely cause the maps to be stretched out. If the maps aren’t stretched out, then be prepared for players sprinting around and going for double melee kills (This is assuming sprint does give the player a significant boost in speed. We don’t know for sure yet. Then again, why include sprint if it doesn’t give a boost in speed?). ADS will certainly throw the weapon balancing out the window (assuming it behaves like Halo 5, which it likely will, because again, why keep ADS in if there is no accuracy boost?).
> > > > >
> > > > > If you’re thinking who cares? Well, I’d say a lot of us care. From what I’ve seen, most people agree map design was top notch in Halos 2-3, with their skill jumps, environmental features, and overall pacing. Seeing as how this is a 10-year game, it would make sense for 343i to bring back classic maps eventually. Remember the Frankenstein-remake of Midship in Halo 5? Truth played nothing like Midship due to Halo 5’s Spartan abilities. Of course, those abilities will be toned down in Infinite (except clamber), but I’d say they will still have an effect on classic maps. Guess we will have to wait and see.
> > > > >
> > > > > How do you think 343i will solve this potential problem?
> >
> > not really, clamber isnt decided to help you not fail jumps, it helps you, uh, climb.
>
> inserts link to Halo 5: Guardians beta ViDoc where Frank O’Connor talks about how satisfying it is to go for a jump, miss, and press a button to hit it the way you thought you should’ve

Many would argue that making difficult jumps without clamber is far more satisfying, because you were able to time your jump and crouch perfectly. What is success if there is no failure? Clamber eliminates failure, unless you’re really bad at making jumps.

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> This is why we have MCC. I’m no advocate for sprint, but I dont hate it either. Revived Classic maps won’t 1:1 replicas, and some might not be fun anymore for that reason, but you will have (hopefully) forge and the occasional classic playlist (which i know isn’t saying much). I just got to say again as well, Bungie was not good at balancing, and they still aren’t.
>
> What about new maps, original designs that are meant to fit the movement, whos to say skill in movement is dead.

True, but I think it’s a shame that this is the direction of Halo for 10 years. We’ll have to wait and see how Infinite is like on launch. I would be surprised if they don’t add classic maps eventually in that 10-year window.

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> > What I’m trying to say is people were fans of those classic maps because of how well they played.
>
> I think what you are saying boils down to is that fans of classic movement appreciated those maps because they were designed to play well with that type of movement.
>
> Chicken and the egg. In this regard, movement comes first… followed by great maps.

That’s my point. We’ve had amazing maps during the time of Halo 2 and 3, maps we would love to see returned. But sadly, it isn’t possible. They were designed with the legacy movement mechanics. Those maps are incompatible with Halo Infinite because the game is sticking with sprint, slide, and clamber. I think it’s a shame.

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> 2533274848663644;11:
> > Good point on how Halo 5’s movement made it a lot easier to break map design. At least Infinite won’t allow combos like that.
> > My problem with ADS is how it allows an assault rifle to outperform a battle rifle at medium range, with it being an auto and being a lot stronger than it was in previous games. Interesting point on the drawbacks of ADS, though.
>
> Well the assault rifle was completely useless in the original games along with every other automatic weapon. So the fact that they were actually given a role is better, especially for everyone’s favorite AR start, the BR is no longer the god power weapon of AR starts.
> At a certain range the AR was meant to beat the BR.

One of the best features of H3 was that EVERY SINGLE weapon had a niche and was powerful when used correctly. AR was no exception. For example you could fire exactly 5 shots and go for the beat down, or bait the melee at medium range against say, a BR, and mow them down full auto while they swipe at the air, or soften them up before going around a corner to switch to your magnum or BR for the final headshot. I think the ADS feature’s pros heavily out weigh the cons (which are basically the ones mentioned; radar, FOV, slight reduced movement) and detracts from the balance of all the weapons. If all you have is an AR and magnum against someone with a longer range gun in a medium to far range situation, then honestly too bad! Try to outplay them or back up and regroup. That’s what a skilled player would do. Regardless, although I was never a fan of the the faster shooting magnums because they are OP, at least you have that. Only balance I can see to ADS is significantly slowed movement or even better taking it out of the game :slight_smile:

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First I want to talk about ADS. In Halo 5 there is a slight boost to accuracy but movement speed stays the same. In the Halo infinite trailer, we can see that the reticle gets enlarged when using ADS. This would imply it will no longer add any extra accuracy. It will however make it easier to see your target because it’s zoomed.

Lastly, we need to stop treating the skill jumps from Halo 2/3 as a common useful skill. Most if not all will not be used in the middle of a firefight, specially against someone of equal skill. They were cool to learn and can help traverse around the map but I never felt it was a skill even needed. I never lost and said, yup, that person beat me because of the skill jumps they learned. Again, they were cool for their time but I don’t feel they add anything to the firefights in the match.

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> First I want to talk about ADS. In Halo 5 there is a slight boost to accuracy but movement speed stays the same. In the Halo infinite trailer, we can see that the reticle gets enlarged when using ADS. This would imply it will no longer add any extra accuracy. It will however make it easier to see your target because it’s zoomed.
>
> Lastly, we need to stop treating the skill jumps from Halo 2/3 as a common useful skill. Most if not all will not be used in the middle of a firefight, specially against someone of equal skill. They were cool to learn and can help traverse around the map but I never felt it was a skill even needed. I never lost and said, yup, that person beat me because of the skill jumps they learned. Again, they were cool for their time but I don’t feel they add anything to the firefights in the match.

That bit about skill jumps not being useful isn’t true at all. Some skill jumps are easy to pull off while others are much more complex. Some of the more simple ones are very handy to pull off in certain scenarios because the enemy sometimes don’t see it coming. And in competitive games, you will see players commonly use these jumps to great effect. They certainly raised the skill ceiling, and they definitely were integral to Halo’s competitive scene. Of course, players weren’t using them all the time, but they were part of Halo’s identity with map traversal. Note: When I say skill jumps, I don’t just refer to ghost jumping or other glitches in Halo 3, I refer to jumps that players often don’t know about.

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Tbh, i dont think this is terrible, the sprint showed off in the overview looked extremely slow when compared to halo 5 and even the base speed of spartans in infinite, however I think it stayed mainly in order to keep slide implemented (an also the semi-open world aspect of the campaign). Canonically it also makes sense for spartans to be able to do these moves.