A sensible approach to weapon re-balancing

Games Other Halo
1

Edit: TL:DR Here are a couple of graphs showing how I personally would tweak weapon balance.

Red reticule ranges

Kill times

343 have stated that a title update will soon be released that will address Sandbox balance concerns in the community. Regardless of whether you think they are necessary or not it is happening. Justifiably there are also concerns that blind nerfing or buffing of weapons may simply shift weapon balance rather than fix anything and over all make the game less enjoyable.

I do believe loadouts could be more balanced than they are now but I want to start by saying what I think 343 should NOT do. Make the BR a 4 shot, make the DMR a 6 shot, Increase the DMR’s Bloom. I feel these changes will negatively affect gameplay.

-I do miss the old 4 shot BR but I feel the whole sandbox would have to be overhauled to accommodate it, automatics for a start would need a significant buff in order to be king of CQC, and I think most would agree even back in Halo 2 when the Carbine was a 7 shot kill the BR was better, the BR now has a faster fire rate, the Carbine I think would have to be a 6 shot to be balanced.

-6 shot DMR, eww. From my experience of Halo 4 there is a lot of running away and backing out of fights going on in Halo 4, too much in my opinion, people should only be able to back down when they are well positioned near cover and anyway the whole point of weapon balancing is to promote weapon diversity, not make it so that the DMR is only any good on BTB maps.

I’ve given it a lot of thought and I think I have a solution that would please the majority. Instead of decreasing the DMRs kill time, make the Carbine a 7 shot kill as opposed to 8, this would give it a faster kill time than the DMR, in fact it would be the same kill time as the 4 shot scoped Light rifle (1.4 seconds) and Increase the BRs fire rate such that it has a 1.6 second kill time. I think that is a good start but I do think we could do better.

The Carbines 0.2 second kill time advantage over the BR is significant, after all that is the same kill time advantage the DMR had against the BR. So I think the BR needs another perk or two. The MLG guys are complaining about the BR’s bullet spread inconsistency , reduce that, make it more accurate. Then I think we should modify aim assist ranges.

Aim assist range is the range at which when you aim at an opponent the reticule turns red and you receive benefits such as auto aim and bullet magnetism.

Here is a graph that shows the current stats.

And here is another link that illustrates BR vs DMR ranges compared to individual maps.

I propose reducing the DMRs maximum aim assist range to that of the Light Rifles. This way the DMR’s auto aim range is proportional to only having a 3x scope. Un-scoped I think it should have a 35m range not 38m. Then I think the BR should receive a range boast to give it a perk over the Carbine. Un-scoped it could be 35m, scoped 70m. This would also increase its viability in BTB.

This way the Carbine rules close range, the Light Rifle rules long range in terms of kill time and the BR and DMR kind of sit in the middle with the DMR having more range, and the BR having burst fire and there for Bleed though. I think that would be balanced. The light rifles burst fire mode could maybe be buffed such that it is as good as the old BR and maybe the likes of the AR could kill in 14 bullets instead of 15. But that’s it, I think that should do it. This is what I would do anyway.

2

Not sure I’m reading this right, you don’t want the DMR to be a 6SK because it might give your opponent a chance to run away?

Do you think its right that the DMR’s magazine contains 2.8 kills? compared to the BR at 2.4? Or should its magazine be reduced to a 12 round mag so the DMR is only allowed 2 missed shots same as the BR. A 6SK DMR will have pretty much the same number of kills in its mag with missed shots as the BR - the difference will be effective range - DMR has long-range advantage - BR has mid-range advantage.

I’m not really following the logic that the BR should be buffed to become more like the DMR and the DMR nerfed to become more like the BR - really they should be tweaked (really just the DMR) to be suitable at its intended range.

The part I really like about the DMR being a 6SK is that it won’t be an obvious change to DMR users, the gun will still ‘feel’ the same if the RoF stays the same. Many will just think they are missing a shot somewhere, it won’t be so blatant as a RoF nerf or more bloom - which everyone hated in Reach. Keep it simple.

3

Im gonna do some tests about aim assist, but i essentially think that youre idea could work as a start point.
Still it would be easier to just tweak the DMR, because there isnt a big gap between the rest of the headshot capable guns

4

> Not sure I’m reading this right, you don’t want the DMR to be a 6SK because it might give your opponent a chance to run away?
>
> Do you think its right that the DMR’s magazine contains 2.8 kills? compared to the BR at 2.4? Or should its magazine be reduced to a 12 round mag so the DMR is only allowed 2 missed shots same as the BR. A 6SK DMR will have pretty much the same number of kills in its mag with missed shots as the BR - the difference will be effective range - DMR has long-range advantage - BR has mid-range advantage.
>
> I’m not really following the logic that the BR should be buffed to become more like the DMR and the DMR nerfed to become more like the BR - really they should be tweaked (really just the DMR) to be suitable at its intended range.
>
> The part I really like about the DMR being a 6SK is that it won’t be an obvious change to DMR users, the gun will still ‘feel’ the same if the RoF stays the same. Many will just think they are missing a shot somewhere, it won’t be so blatant as a RoF nerf or more bloom - which everyone hated in Reach. Keep it simple.

I think there is an ideal balance between people being able to make an informed decision and back down from a losing battle and people beings punished for wondering out into the open. A 6 shot DMR would have a 1.9 second kill time which I think would be pushing it.

5

I like the way you argue your point, I’ma gonna give you a thanks!

Well the BR has a kill time of 1.8sec, I’d settle for a DMR with a kill time of 1.85 as a 5SK (instead of the current 1.68 5SK we currently have) but I fear 343 would somehow mess that up which is why i’d keep it simple for them.

6

I had made some tests in Custom games, unfortunately since i dont have a decent camera my videos sucked: you can dowmload’em here:
FILES

MOV007
BR at his max assist range (30.6m) aiming the reticle as much upwards as you can still get red reticle

MOV008
Same (30.6m, reticle up) but with DMR

MOV009
DMR at his max assist range (38.4m) aimed as much upwards as you can still get red reticle

MOV010
Same (38.4, RETICLE UP as much as you can still get red with the DMR, not the BR) but with BR

MOV011
BR at his max assist range (30.6) but setting the reticle in the center of the dummy

MOV012 and MOV013
Same (30.6m, reticle in the center) but with DMR

It is even more funny since the DMR killed in 5 bullets in all the tests (MOV012 is the exeption, but the parameters were the same as MOV013), and the BR didnt even kill the target…

FILES

NOW
These are my conclussions:
-Contrary to what I initially tought, the DMR and the BR have the same headshot area.
-The DMR bloom doesnt matter most of the time and feels somehow random, (see MOV012 AND MOV013)
-What really makes the DMR different from the BR is that it is recoiless; this is whenever you have the enemy aimed in the head all the shots will be headshots, this is not true for the BR

OF COURSE, i was playing in splitscreen in custom games and the video quality is horrible, but you can replicate the same conditions of the tests in matchmaking and see the results by yourself, i would be glad if someone can do it with a better camera XD
Anyway, this is the proof that the DMR is easier to aim than any other weapon since you only need to aim horizontally, the bloom is mostly useless (and the BR spread at longer distances), it has the most far aiming help, and its recoiless.

7

I think the only change should be adding bloom to the DMR. That way, it won’t be as good at close-ranges (it’s supposed to be a Marksmen rifle). Maybe they could make the Carbine a 7sk.

8

Carbine actually does well in the right hands, I’m all for weapons rewarding people who take the time to learn to use them properly.

9

> I think the only change should be adding bloom to the DMR. That way, it won’t be as good at close-ranges (it’s supposed to be a Marksmen rifle). Maybe they could make the Carbine a 7sk.

I honestly don’t think bloom worked at all well in Reach. There was always a pace you could shoot that would 100% guarantee a 5 shot kill, that pace varied according to the range of the conflict, all this is fine. If both players in that conflict shoot at the ideal rate of fire and see each other at the same time the only variable is the players actions and skill. The problem was bloom promoted spamming.

If one of those players shot slightly faster than the ideal rate of fire they perhaps had a 90% chance of achieving a faster kill time and there for winning. In fact the sensible pacer was at a massive disadvantage, he/she only the has a 10% chance of winning if both players have equal aiming ability. So the Pacer should then spam even faster than the first guy, that will flip the odds in the other direct. This continues up to 50%, at this rate of fire you have a 50-50 chance of beating a strict pacer but the odd of beating a spammer who didn’t fully commit is even higher because they also have a chance at not achieving a 5 shot so that gets taken away from their over all chance of winning.

Bloom could not be completely accommodated for because it had the fundamental flaw of being inconsistent.

Anyway I think balance can be achieved without it.

10

Seeing as how you have 3 other precision rifles besides the dmr this time, i do not think bloom would be a problem. i do not think that a slower rate of fire would compensate for the fact that it has to be able to kill a target before they can get to cover. I see that as a Lighrifle accept now having a 5 shot kill, and imagine having this but without having to scope. The main problem is that the dmr is to accurate at every range. However try combining the concept of bloom and a low rate of fire together. If the rate of fire was lowered to be a little bit more than the light rifle while also adding a certain amount of bloom to compensate for the new rate of fire then people who try to spam would be punished for getting up close and it would be wise to keep a distance because of how the rate of fire is not fast and spamming will be inaccurate and slow.

11

NOTE!!!
the ar has a 1.7 kill time at this time… keep that in mind with your rifle kill times… a 1.6 br would be op compared to ar

12

> 343 have already stated that sometime this January a title update TU2 will be released that will address Sandbox balance concerns in the community . Regardless of whether you think they are necessary or not it is happening. Justifiably there are also concerns that blind nerfing or buffing of weapons may simply shift weapon balance rather than fix anything and over all make the game less enjoyable.
>
> I do believe loadouts could be more balanced than they are now but I want to start by saying what I think 343 should NOT do. Make the BR a 4 shot, make the DMR a 6 shot, Increase the DMR’s Bloom. I feel these changes will negatively affect gameplay.
>
> -I do miss the old 4 shot BR but I feel the whole sandbox would have to be overhauled to accommodate it, automatics for a start would need a significant buff in order to be king of CQC, and I think most would agree even back in Halo 2 when the Carbine was a 7 shot kill the BR was better, the BR now has a faster fire rate, the Carbine I think would have to be a 6 shot to be balanced.
>
> -6 shot DMR, eww. From my experience of Halo 4 there is a lot of running away and backing out of fights going on in Halo 4, too much in my opinion, people should only be able to back down when they are well positioned near cover and anyway the whole point of weapon balancing is to promote weapon diversity, not make it so that the DMR is only any good on BTB maps.
>
> I’ve given it a lot of thought and I think I have a solution that would please the majority. Instead of decreasing the DMRs kill time, make the Carbine a 7 shot kill as opposed to 8, this would give it a faster kill time than the DMR, in fact it would be the same kill time as the 4 shot scoped Light rifle (1.4 seconds) and Increase the BRs fire rate such that it has a 1.6 second kill time. I think that is a good start but I do think we could do better.
>
> The Carbines 0.2 second kill time advantage over the BR is significant, after all that is the same kill time advantage the DMR had against the BR. So I think the BR needs another perk or two. The MLG guys are complaining about the BR’s bullet spread inconsistency , reduce that, make it more accurate. Then I think we should modify aim assist ranges.
>
> Aim assist range is the range at which when you aim at an opponent the reticule turns red and you receive benefits such as auto aim and bullet magnetism.
>
> Here is a graph that shows the current stats.
>
> And here is another link that illustrates BR vs DMR ranges compared to individual maps.
>
> I propose reducing the DMRs maximum aim assist range to that of the Light Rifles. This way the DMR’s auto aim range is proportional to only having a 3x scope. Un-scoped I think it should have a 35m range not 38m. Then I think the BR should receive a range boast to give it a perk over the Carbine. Un-scoped it could be 35m, scoped 70m. This would also increase its viability in BTB.
>
> This way the Carbine rules close range, the Light Rifle rules long range in terms of kill time and the BR and DMR kind of sit in the middle with the DMR having more range, and the BR having burst fire and there for Bleed though. I think that would be balanced. The light rifles burst fire mode could maybe be buffed such that it is as good as the old BR and maybe the likes of the AR could kill in 14 bullets instead of 15. But that’s it, I think that should do it. This is what I would do anyway.

Finally a post that I can agree with and actually has a good analysis.

13

> Not sure I’m reading this right, you don’t want the DMR to be a 6SK because it might give your opponent a chance to run away?
>
> Do you think its right that the DMR’s magazine contains 2.8 kills? compared to the BR at 2.4? Or should its magazine be reduced to a 12 round mag so the DMR is only allowed 2 missed shots same as the BR. A 6SK DMR will have pretty much the same number of kills in its mag with missed shots as the BR - the difference will be effective range - DMR has long-range advantage - BR has mid-range advantage.
>
> I’m not really following the logic that the BR should be buffed to become more like the DMR and the DMR nerfed to become more like the BR - really they should be tweaked (really just the DMR) to be suitable at its intended range.
>
> The part I really like about the DMR being a 6SK is that it won’t be an obvious change to DMR users, the gun will still ‘feel’ the same if the RoF stays the same. Many will just think they are missing a shot somewhere, it won’t be so blatant as a RoF nerf or more bloom - which everyone hated in Reach. Keep it simple.

I don’t see how the closer you get to someone the less accurate you become…
That is pretty much what I get from what you are saying and how you want the DMR to be nerfed to.

14

> NOTE!!!
> the ar has a 1.7 kill time at this time… keep that in mind with your rifle kill times… a 1.6 br would be op compared to ar

If every bullet hits I think it is a 1.5 second kill time but I still agree you may be right, automatics will relatively speaking be weaker against the BR and even more so the Carbine with what I am suggesting. They are however only being empowered to the level of the DMR and the AR can still beat the DMR fairly consistently (primarily due to flinch).

I think the AR should kill in 14 bullets not 15 giving it a 1.4 second kill time. That way it should retain its king of CQC title and maybe could actually kill 2 people per clip realistically in the right hands. Other Automatics should receive similar buffs. Faster bloom resets, greater accuracy ect.

15

> I don’t see how the closer you get to someone the less accurate you become…
> That is pretty much what I get from what you are saying and how you want the DMR to be nerfed to.

You don’t and I never said you did. If you have a DMR which is a 6SK with a slower kill time then say a BR then at long range the DMR would still have the advantage due to the BR’s inaccuracy, even though the DMR would have a slower kill time it will land more hits then the BR which will have shots miss due to its bullet spread.

Now as the BR and the DMR gets closer, enters mid-range more of the BR’s rounds will land and this is where the BR’s RoF combined with damage per trigger pull would out match the DMR - the DMR still does as much damage as it did at long range in the same time but the BR can now do it faster.

Simple concept really, nothing to do with a DMR becoming more inaccurate the closer it gets.

16

To use a 6 shot DMR effectively I think you would have to sit back and on the most part camp with it. I am primarily a 4v4 slayer guy myself and I like the fact the BR, Carbine and DMR are all viable weapons on maps as small as Haven and enclosed as Adrift. Weapon diversity is what I hope the TU promotes, not just balance.

I don’t like the Fact the DMR dominates BTB, with the Light Rifle being the only real alternative. I don’t like the fact the DMR with its 114m range has a faster kill time than the Carbine and BR. I don’t like that the BR takes so long to kill and that the Carbine only has a 2.25 kill clip size whilst the DMR has 2.8. These are the things I hope the TU changes and I hope that these changes promote weapon diversity, fast paced gameplay and map movement.

17

I think automatic weapons should ultimately lose to skilled precision weapon users with the exception of the light rifle and DMR at close range, but only by a very small margin. (For instance an AR has hypothetically speaking a 1.7s kill time, the BR should be 1.65s and the Carbine should be 1.6s) This along with a nerf on bullet magnetism on all primary loadout weapons will make it harder for the BR user (and significantly more for the CC user) to get the perfect 5 shot on the AR user at CQC.

The reason for this is Halo’s formula always had precision weapons requiring more skill (pulling off headshots is harder than shooting anywhere on the spartan with the assault rifle.) to kill faster than the automatic wielding user anyway. However i do feel that in Halo 4 buffing the Assault rifle and other automatic weapons compared to how they were in previous Halo games was a good thing. (increases the skill gap required to kill an automatic weapon user at CQC with a precision weapon).

As for the DMR i do agree it needs a nerf as the other weapons feel somewhat balanced as it is (apart from the boltshot but that’s not the most gamebreaking thing here). However i do not agree with the bloom mechanic belonging in Halo for 1 reason. 1. The bloom mechanic goes against the Halo style, on almost all mm factors skill is the deciding factor on who is victorious, introducing bloom (this was 1 of the problems with Reach) introduces a significant element of randomness and luck. This is not how Halo should be, (for now the only majorly inconsistent luck based element in Halo 4 is the ordinance drops).

What the DMR needs is a lower RoF (should not have a fire rate quicker than the BR), bullet magnetism equal to all other primary load out weapons, and maybe lowering the kills per clip to 2.4 (the same as the BR). However keep the CC at 2.25 (due to the nature of the CC requiring 8 headshots to kill someone, it already has a lot of ammo in 1 clip anyway, taking into account encounters with enemies who are 1 shot, this is a fair compromise for having a marginally lower Kill per Clip).

The Lightrifle is balanced as it is. The Automatic weapons i must say i can’t really say if they require a buff or ner, all i know is that it shouldn’t win against skilled users in a straight up duel at CQC against a BR or Carbine.

18

I have no problem with the DMR being a camping weapon - thats what it is supposed to do - be comfortable at long range and be the closest thing to a sniper rifle for load out - thats what a marksman is. What it shouldn’t get is homing bullets and a faster kill-time in CQC then an Assault Rifle.

I’m also happy in the knowledge that without bullet magnatism, wannabie snipers with lousy aim will simply exhaust their ammo and have to re-think their strategy while those of us playing in the Short/Middle ranges get plenty of ammo from dead players.

As for a precision weapon killing faster in CQC - WHY? It already takes 16 rounds from an AR to kill someone the BR fires the same rounds in burst and will do it in 15 (5 bursts). It is a LACK of skill that lands someone with a midrange weapon within kicking distance of an Automatic user, and it is SKILL that places an AUTO user in CQC range of a precision weapon user.

Don’t go thinking that just because you picked a precision weapon that you deserve to dominate everything - pick your fights and control the situation - don’t go charging into a telephone box with a spear expecting to beat someone with a knife - not going to happen.

19

> I have no problem with the DMR being a camping weapon - thats what it is supposed to do - be comfortable at long range and be the closest thing to a sniper rifle for load out - thats what a marksman is. What it shouldn’t get is homing bullets and a faster kill-time in CQC then an Assault Rifle.
>
> I’m also happy in the knowledge that without bullet magnatism, wannabie snipers with lousy aim will simply exhaust their ammo and have to re-think their strategy while those of us playing in the Short/Middle ranges get plenty of ammo from dead players.
>
> As for a precision weapon killing faster in CQC - WHY? It already takes 16 rounds from an AR to kill someone the BR fires the same rounds in burst and will do it in 15 (5 bursts). It is a LACK of skill that lands someone with a midrange weapon within kicking distance of an Automatic user, and it is SKILL that places an AUTO user in CQC range of a precision weapon user.
>
> Don’t go thinking that just because you picked a precision weapon that you deserve to dominate everything - pick your fights and control the situation - don’t go charging into a telephone box with a spear expecting to beat someone with a knife - not going to happen.

What the DMR is supposed to be is a utility weapon. Anyway the DMRs range is supposed to be equivalent to having a 3x scope. If a weapon with a 2x scope has a 60m range logically a weapon with a 3x scope should have a 90m range. With this change the DMRs camping potential has been lowered so it’s close range potential doesn’t need to be lowered as much.

Canonically speaking the DMR and BR are supposed to be very similar weapons. Seeing as the BR was the DMRs successor after all. The DMR being the more precise, the more accurate, the harder to use, with a 3x scope, and the BR being the burst fire equivalent but with slightly less range. But they are both supposed to be strong effective Utility weapons useful in virtually any situation presented.

20

The fact that you don’t advocate a 6sk DMR or a 4sk BR makes you more sensible than 50% of this forum, well done. Here’s my thoughts;

DMR - Nerf ROF to have a kill time that’s lower than the BR by just a little bit. This makes it far less effective in mid-range combat comparatively.

BR - Leave it, its well balanced.

LR - Leave it, also well balanced.

Carbine - Lower the 8sk to a 7sk, since its high ROF will make up for 2 extra shots compared to the BR and make it viable again.