A request for a proper Legendary difficulty

Games Other Halo
1

Hello 343,

I’m not joking when I say that Legendary has gone too far nowadays. CE Legendary was a huge step from Heroic. Nevertheless, it was very satisfying and had me replaying encounters for that very reason. I actually never bothered completing the missions because there were so many things they had to offer. I didn’t want to get it done and over with it so I could put the game on a book shelve collecting dust. I didn’t play it just for a Xbox 360 achievement or so I could rack up credits or to unlock new armor. I played it for customization, call it enhancement of gameplay. I wanted to play every single encounter as if they were individual levels and payed excruciating attention to them so I could come up with new tactics and refine old strategies.

Now the reason why I bring this up is because of how the difficulty has changed for the worst. Immersion is completely broken by even the smallest things, such as drawing distance (also, I believe in Reach, AI behavior is affected by player proximity), water (in H3 or Reach, go in the water and the AI can only throw grenades at you. On LNoS, go under the water, wait for the dropship, move out of the water a little so you can see clearly and you can practically take out the entire wave from that spot if you’re properly equipped), disappearing objects (weapons, dead bodies, scenery), disappearing AI (Bobs may be a kind of easter egg but they should have been placed outside of the gameplay or at least where they would be less noticeable)…

And unrealistic AI attributes: teleporting, shooting at enemies they’re facing away from, firing plasma pistol bolts immediately after releasing an overcharged bolt, fuel rod shots having slight homing (H3 and Reach), bottomless clip (while CE AI had infinite ammo, they did not have a bottomless clip meaning they could suffer from overheating and had to reload their guns), not stumbling from melee and/or shots, Noble Team shields recharging even while being shot at.

CE may have had some immersion breakers of it’s own but they weren’t that noticeable. In fact, they were concealed really well. For example, if you stopped shooting at the Elite, you’ll notice that they move a lot less. If you stopped shooting at the Spec Ops Elites, you’ll notice that they don’t toss their grenades. But because of enemy fire and because you wanted to progress, you had to fire. You had to retaliate. Also, no longer is there any opportunity for long lasting dominance. You make even one wrong move, you get killed for it.

[I could have made a list right here listing all the implausibilities and atrocities in the newer Halo games but I think I’ve made my point.]

Now obviously, there are people who want punishment, a difficulty that makes you work for something, a game that makes you think… hard. Who actually like this kind of combat. Who like turning on difficulty skulls just for the sheer challenge. And I have no choice but to respect that. Which is why I propose a new difficulty.

An intermediary between Heroic and Legendary, one that preserves the balance of Heroic and encourages replayability, just like CE Legendary. In CE, I feel this was much needed because as I mentioned above, Legendary was a big change from Heroic. Up until Heroic, difficulty was increased slightly. With Legendary, it felt like a 2x change. What if I wanted a harder challenge but didn’t like how Legendary changed some things?
If you guys aren’t going to eliminate the false difficulty from Legendary in Halo 4, I’d be disappointed but I would have to tolerate that because I am willing to tolerate Halo 4 regardless of how it turns out.

But please, give players who want to play a CE style Legendary an intermediary difficulty that fits in between Heroic and Legendary and combines both aspects (preserves immersion/realism and balance while making it much more challenging, interesting, and replayable), and had it been included in CE, induced a more pleasant and reasaonable disposition regarding campaign difficulty in new players of CE and of the series. I would really like a difficulty that didn’t deviate from the CE feel. All the other Halo Legendarys felt completely different from CE Legendary. I miss AI manipulation. I miss feeling competant. I miss the mix of slow and fast speed. Everything feels speeded up. I shouldn’t have to turn on skulls just to tailor to my needs. CE appealed to everyone and I would like Halo 4 to do so as well.

TLDR: Legendary cheats now. If it will not be cleansed of all this false difficulty, I would like a difficulty that is set between Heroic and Legendary and possesses traits from both difficulties, particularly immersion and balance from Heroic. Both of those were what kept me coming back to CE Legendary and to a lesser extent, the other Halo games.

Hopefully, this will be my last post in the Halo 4 forum. I fear not for Halo 4 but for the community because H4 will undoubtedly be shaped by the community, beta or not.

2

Just for the note, I have played CE, H2, and H3 extensively on Legendary and beyond.

In CE, I would come up with new approaches, marking out the hardest encounters just for the purpose of defeating them, and being able to fight every Elite in cqc and survive mostly if not completely unscathed. I would also use sound to my advantage, firing my gun to disrupt a patrolling Elite to give me more time to sneak up on him or to get Covies in a state of panic allowing me to sneak up on them later.

In H2, I tested some of the hardest levels (CS, Oracle, QZ, Great Journey) with most, sometimes all skulls on and found them to be signficantly more tolerable and enjoyable than H3 LASO. I am thankful I can still get sticks (in Reach, it’s quite difficult and sometimes pointless and in H3, it’s annoying how the AI react and dive so fast whereas Reach AI just react fast) and assassinations (H2 Black Eye is a skull that deserves praise. It allowed players to take the fight to the Covies). I also researched into a potential megabattle (sadly, it did not dwarf it’s predecessor or successor) and established one of my best AI collection setups in Halo.

In H3, I would mostly play for the AI, although I did a bit of tricking, but I still had strategy in mind when playing H3. I found ways to eliminate Arbiter from the level, use Arbiter to kill everything, to stop marines from driving off with my vehicles, to goad Chieftains into wasting their power drain, to counter every move of a hammer Chieftain, to equip the Spec Ops Elites on Floodgate with swords and use them at the area with the Pure Forms, to use the Banshee’s backflip for covert intrusions, to get enemy AI to kill themselves, etc. This was the kind of AI manipulation that I missed although it was severely lacking and redundant in some cases. Often, I found these on Easy or Heroic and adapted them into Legendary. Lower difficulties have become redundant these days yet there is far more value in them in that they do not hinder your options and make things more convenient to discover.

I have also put in many hours into Halo: Reach, on all of the difficulties, especially Legendary. As I only have the Reach demo, which featured a disappointing portion of LNoS, there was not much to do so I had to come up with things. My setups and playtests include:

-stopping the Covenant approach
-stopping the trooper approach
-allowing only Elites to advance (my kind of battle, without Grunts and Jackals ruining things). The troopers actually have a chance. This setup also allows me to equip them with Covie guns (they turn too slowly even in the heat of battle when you want to swap with them) to increase their efficiency against shields even more
-forcing both sides to stay in their safe/spawn areas. Normally, if you hang back near the main Covie drop off point, the Covies, if they have noticed you, they will come over to you instead of charging up to the facility. It is possible to get them to back off by stopping the troopers from charging and killing the Jackals
-securing more material for my blockades
-putting Noble Team to good use, particularly Jorge and Kat
-repositioning rocket launcher troopers for better support
-assassinating an entire wave of Covies
-assassinating all the Elites in a wave by hiding at the cliffs and pouncing on them when they stay near the pointed rock below (as a result of your positioning, they go there instead of heading up the beach)

Of course, with the Wraith being the only ground vehicle on the level at that point, I had to go through a lot of trouble just to get these setups done without being killed or losing the Wraith. I also had to deal with constant Covie reinforcements, Spirit dropship turrets, and friendly fire from rocket launcher troopers. All this just to get the combat I wanted.

This is from a dedicated Halo campaign player who plays them for fun and satisfaction and always in an endeavor to bring forth new things that contribute to the replayability.

3

Seconded. Not only are there some questionable triggers like drawing distance and whether or not you’re in the water (who’s idea was that? honestly…), there’s also cheap shots like buffing the enemy health and shields to ludicrous levels and superfast trigger spamming. CE’s legendary had it right. Hordes of smart, normal-strength enemies instead of squads of meatshields.

I for one would love to see more realistic and diverse reactions from the enemy (and allies, just sayin’). The enemies don’t need to be super hard to beat, with their crazy fast dodges and insane firing speed. They just need to be unpredictable. Predictability is what makes a Halo game lose its replayability for me. Hunters aren’t that fun for me to fight any more because I know exactly what they’re going to do any pretty much any time. An enemy with a very diverse set of actions and reactions will continually surprise and entertain. Not to mention since you can’t really predict what the enemy is going to do, the game becomes more of a challenge as well. That’s the direction I’d like Halo’s Legendary to go in.

4

I would type my idea for Legendary, but I’ll send you here instead.

Oh and I sort of exaggerated on a few parts.

5

Also, please stop putting in such easy skips. I’m talking about Pillar of Autumn specifically. I can take a 1.5 hour level and finish it in under half an hour if I hustle. You’re making it too easy for the speed runners!

6

I haven’t encountered any of the glitches that you’ve mentioned (and they do sound like glitches). And I strongly believe that immersion has increased with each iteration of the series, not decreased.

7

> I haven’t encountered any of the glitches that you’ve mentioned (and they do sound like glitches). And I strongly believe that immersion has increased with each iteration of the series, not decreased.

Care to point out which parts?

How are these glitches:

-teleporting (Arbiter, Johnson, The Squad, Noble Team)
-shooting at enemies they’re facing away from (Reach Wraiths)
-firing plasma pistol bolts immediately after releasing an overcharged bolt (Reach Jackals)
-fuel rod shots having slight homing (H3 and Reach)
-bottomless clip (while CE AI had infinite ammo they did not have a bottomless clip meaning they could suffer from overheating and had to reload their guns)
-not stumbling from melee and/or shots (Reach Elites, H3 Brutes)
-Noble Team shields recharging even while being shot at

8

> CE’s legendary had it right. Hordes of smart, normal-strength enemies instead of squads of meatshields.

Agreed. AI manipulation was still possible. I believe that (manipulation, tricking AI) was mentioned in the 30 seconds of fun article.

> I for one would love to see more realistic and diverse reactions from the enemy (and allies, just sayin’). The enemies don’t need to be super hard to beat, with their crazy fast dodges and insane firing speed. They just need to be unpredictable. Predictability is what makes a Halo game lose its replayability for me. Hunters aren’t that fun for me to fight any more because I know exactly what they’re going to do any pretty much any time. An enemy with a very diverse set of actions and reactions will continually surprise and entertain. Not to mention since you can’t really predict what the enemy is going to do, the game becomes more of a challenge as well. That’s the direction I’d like Halo’s Legendary to go in.

You have a point. No longer do Grunts do that “get it off” animation, no longer do Elites run around in circles when they’re stuck with a grenade, no longer do Jackals panic when their shields are down, and most Covies don’t even react to a grenade thrown nearby.

9

what would probably make the difficulty settings better, is if they DIDNT change the ststs of an enemy, instead change how smart they are or how often they do X like throw grenades etc.

the HP and Shield str of enemy X should be what ever it is and thats that, and the weapons should NOT be less effective, they should do X damage and thats that.

just make them smarter, braver or more of the enemy spawn.

but thats just how i see it

10

> You have a point. No longer do Grunts do that “get it off” animation, no longer do Elites run around in circles when they’re stuck with a grenade, no longer do Jackals panic when their shields are down, and most Covies don’t even react to a grenade thrown nearby.

That’s got to be the single most annoying illusion-breaker for me. I just threw a live grenade at a group of Covies. They don’t need to get away, but at the very least react! And if I stick an enemy, why don’t they notice? That really breaks my suspension of disbelief and it’s something I hope 343 spends some time on.

11

> the HP and Shield str of enemy X should be what ever it is and thats that, and the weapons should NOT be less effective, they should do X damage and thats that.

In it’s current state, the HP and shield need stripping. If I wanted enemies that didn’t stumble from shots and melee until they took enough damage or got shot by a weapon that induced that state (pistol), I would have preferred that as a skull (a.k.a Ghost), not as something that makes Legendary an arcade, firefight style gameplay.

> just make them smarter

Of course.

> braver

I think this needs to be toned down for some Covenant troops. I think you mean aggression, which could use a bit of work since it’s basically rof, projectile speed, and damage doing most of the work.

> or more of the enemy spawn.

Enemy numbers are supposedly at their peak in Reach.

12

I think I’d also rather that difficulty added Covenant units than increasing the existing units’ health and damage. That said, I’ve never had a big problem with the idea of dying very quickly from gunfire. My first strong memories of playing FPS come from Halo (sure, I think I fiddled on Team Fortress and Counterstrike a little bit, but I was a wee child), so I’m used to the idea that you have a small pool of regenerative health to work with. Being a super soldier, to me, is simply being able to stick my head out and fire without dying like any other soldier would.

Changing what AI are capable of by difficulty might also be a good way to run it. What I’ve observed, actually, is that AI seem more creative on lower difficulties. But maybe that’s because they haven’t needed more than two seconds of direct hits to take me down on Legendary. I distinctly remember losing to an Elite on Normal, though, because I didn’t know he wasn’t dead and he revved up the scorpion while my back was turned…

13

Bring back Halo 2 Buggers, Jackal Snipers, Halo 3 Pure Forms and Halo Reach Elites.

Just for the lolz.

14

My issues with Reach campaign mainly focused on non-sensical events. Give a trooper a Rocket Launcher and he will fire it very slowly, and targets hit more than often survive the shot. This seems to be an attempt to make the ally AIs less of a threat to Covenant AIs, I can’t stand it. In H2 and H3 (to a certain extent) a friendly AI with a decent weapon becomes a very practical and useful thing to have, in Reach they are very much cannon fodder even when loaded with power weapons.

Thats not my main issue though. The persistence of AIs drove me crazy, you might have looked after several Troopers and gave them decent weaponry and are pushing on through a level, you reach a magical point in the level and they suddenly stop following you… I understand that the gameplay would not work if you could amass 20 Troopers to follow you all over but the sudden stop was infuriating. In H3 if you managed to save or rescue Marines they would most likely, perhaps with a bit of pushing, follow you to the end of the map. In Reach they just don’t follow you at all. On the final level as you push through the Boneyard part of the level you can often end up with 5 Troopers who survived the battle. At this point you are about to push on to the final, critical moment where you meet Keyes and yet at this point all of those Troopers decide “Nah we’ll stay here in this empty area whilst you go ahead”, and you push on to get… just two Troopers. It just makes no sense to me, and it was the first time when I thought this game doesn’t make a lot of sense…

I really hope H4 has a good Campaign that avoids those sorts of issues.

15

> Bring back Halo 2 Buggers, Jackal Snipers, Halo 3 Pure Forms and Halo Reach Elites.
>
> Just for the lolz.

Y’know, I remember Bungie saying, before Reach came out, that they had added elite snipers to Legendary. Maybe they mentioned taking them out, but I don’t remember reading that and I was disappointed when I saw no such things (I mean, aside from that part on Nightfall). A pretty good way to make something Legendary is to add a jerk sniper.

That said, drones and jackal snipers are examples of elements that, on Legendary, demand strategy over tactics. I think the OP is probably thinking that a hypothetical new difficulty ought to be about tactical reaction rather than strategic reaction.

16

> > Bring back Halo 2 Buggers, Jackal Snipers, Halo 3 Pure Forms and Halo Reach Elites.
> >
> > Just for the lolz.
>
> Y’know, I remember Bungie saying, before Reach came out, that they had added elite snipers to Legendary. Maybe they mentioned taking them out, but I don’t remember reading that and I was disappointed when I saw no such things (I mean, aside from that part on Nightfall). A pretty good way to make something Legendary is to add a jerk sniper.
>
> That said, drones and jackal snipers are examples of elements that, on Legendary, demand strategy over tactics. I think the OP is probably thinking that a hypothetical new difficulty ought to be about tactical reaction rather than strategic reaction.

I may be the only one but I liked Jackal Snipers in Halo 2.

Outskirts is a urban based mission. In basically every other game, I have never felt pinned down, I wasn’t fighting for survival, there was no scenario that I couldn’t accomplish via spray and pray.

That is what I think Halo 2 did brilliantly. You needed accuracy, guts and strategic thinking to take out a Jackal Sniper.

I remember sheltering in the building picking them off with head shots. That was a great feeling. I felt like I was defending something, I was actually pinned down in a city.

Although I don’t want them return because they are a “Only in Halo 2” special, I would like to see the concept brought into future Halo games.

17

My idea for Legendary.

Damage, and Shied strength. Just becasue you’re playing on a higher difficultly doesn’t mean the the enemies have to be gods compared to you.

Player:
-Your shield strength would remain the same for all the difficulties.
-You would do the same amount of damage as the enemy does to you.

Friendly A.I.:
-They would have the same amount of health, and damage resistance for all difficulties. ODST would have a higher damage resistance then regular Marines.
-An ODST would have better tactics than a regular marine.
-They would do the same amount of damage as you, and the enemies.
-The Friendly A.I. would be as smart as the enemy A.I.

Enemies:
Damage: Lets say I’m playing on Legendary. The enemies will be doing more damage to me, than I will do to them. Even though we are both using the same weapon. We should be doing the same amount of damage to each other.
Health:
-Enemies would have the same amount of health for all the difficulties. So an Elite will have the same HP for easy, as he does for Legendary.
Damage resistance:
-Elites: A minor Elite will have a lower resistance then an Major Elite do to better armor. The resistance will stay the same for all difficulties.
Shield Strength
-Elites: The higher up they are the stronger their shields are. But the shield strength would remain the same for all difficulties.

A.I.: It will be the same for all difficulties.
-The A.I. would remain the same smarts for all difficulties. The only thing that would matter are their ranks, and enemy type.
Elites: A Major Elite will have better tactics then a Minor elite. Do to experience on the battlefield, and training.
Enemy types: An Elite will have better tactics then a Grunt. Do to the chain of command, and what not.

18

> My idea for Legendary.
>
> Damage, and Shied strength. Just becasue you’re playing on a higher difficultly doesn’t mean the the enemies have to be gods compared to you.
>
> Player:
> -Your shield strength would remain the same for all the difficulties.
> -You would do the same amount of dame as the enemy does to you.
>
> Friendly A.I.:
> -They would have the same amount of health, and damage resistance for all difficulties. ODST would have a higher damage resistance then regular Marines.
> -They would do the same amount of damage as you, and the enemies.
>
>
> Enemies:
> Damage: Lets say I’m playing on Legendary the enemies will be doing more damage to me, then I will do to them. Even though we are both using the same weapon. We should be doing the same amount of damage to each other.
> Health:
> -Enemies would have the same amount of health for all the difficulties. So an Elite will have the same HP for easy, as he does for Legendary.
> Damage resistance:
> -Elites: A minor Elite will have a lower resistance then an Major Elite do to better armor. The resistance will stay the same for all difficulties.
> Shield Strength
> -Elites: The higher up they the stronger their shields are. But the shield strength would remain the same fore all difficulties.
>
> A.I.: It will be the same for all difficulties.
> -The Friendly A.I. should be as smart as the enemy A.I.
> -The A.I. would remain the same smarts for all difficulties. The only thing that would matter are their ranks, and enemy type.
> Elites: A Major Elite will have better tactics then a Minor elite. Do to experience on the battlefield, and training.
> Enemy types: An Elite will have better tactics then a Grunt. Do to the chain of command, and what not.

see this is more what i was talking about, maybe not 100% but really close to it.

the only thing that maybe should be commented on is that different enemy types like elite inf (Blue i think) and … Ultras etc should have different shield strength but the same HP, same with the Brutes and their armor and the like.

Halo 3 and ODST had it i think really good when it came to the different enemy types.

but yes, no mucking with the stats of an enemy when changing difficulty, save that for RPGs and the like.

19

> I think I’d also rather that difficulty added Covenant units than increasing the existing units’ health and damage. That said, I’ve never had a big problem with the idea of dying very quickly from gunfire. My first strong memories of playing FPS come from Halo (sure, I think I fiddled on Team Fortress and Counterstrike a little bit, but I was a wee child), so I’m used to the idea that you have a small pool of regenerative health to work with. Being a super soldier, to me, is simply being able to stick my head out and fire without dying like any other soldier would.
>
> Changing what AI are capable of by difficulty might also be a good way to run it. What I’ve observed, actually, is that AI seem more creative on lower difficulties. But maybe that’s because they haven’t needed more than two seconds of direct hits to take me down on Legendary. I distinctly remember losing to an Elite on Normal, though, because I didn’t know he wasn’t dead and he revved up the scorpion while my back was turned…

Agreed.

It is a shame that they only show off more of their capabilities if you let them live. Most players don’t do this, thanks to the noob combo or some other method of hastening their defeat, meaning you never get to see AI behavior like pointing. In CE, I think most people let some AI live just to see their reactions.

> My issues with Reach campaign mainly focused on non-sensical events. Give a trooper a Rocket Launcher and he will fire it very slowly, and targets hit more than often survive the shot. This seems to be an attempt to make the ally AIs less of a threat to Covenant AIs, I can’t stand it. In H2 and H3 (to a certain extent) a friendly AI with a decent weapon becomes a very practical and useful thing to have, in Reach they are very much cannon fodder even when loaded with power weapons.
>
> Thats not my main issue though. The persistence of AIs drove me crazy, you might have looked after several Troopers and gave them decent weaponry and are pushing on through a level, you reach a magical point in the level and they suddenly stop following you… I understand that the gameplay would not work if you could amass 20 Troopers to follow you all over but the sudden stop was infuriating. In H3 if you managed to save or rescue Marines they would most likely, perhaps with a bit of pushing, follow you to the end of the map. In Reach they just don’t follow you at all. On the final level as you push through the Boneyard part of the level you can often end up with 5 Troopers who survived the battle. At this point you are about to push on to the final, critical moment where you meet Keyes and yet at this point all of those Troopers decide “Nah we’ll stay here in this empty area whilst you go ahead”, and you push on to get… just two Troopers. It just makes no sense to me, and it was the first time when I thought this game doesn’t make a lot of sense…
>
> I really hope H4 has a good Campaign that avoids those sorts of issues.

Agreed.

Intriguing (and horrific although this kind of disappointment was also in H3, like on The Storm, when the marines gather on the roof after the AA Wraith and Wraith are taken out and when 5-6 marines look like they’re going to follow you into the warehouse to make an abrupt stop). So does that mean they run back to their spot if you move them or they don’t move at all? If it’s the latter, does it matter how far you push them or are they still inactive?

Yeah H4 really needs to focus on the friendly AI. I mean they’re not even going to be featured prominently by the looks of it. So this is one of the best opportunities to wow us and get us excited for Halo 5 and Halo 6, as it would be just a glimpse. As for me, I’m pretty confident in 343 after seeing the CEA ODSTs.

20

> Bring back Halo 2 Buggers

Disagree.

I want headshot capable Drones like in Reach. I never got the chance to fight them as I don’t have Reach but by the looks of things, they’re much more active than in H2 and H3.

> Jackal Snipers

Agreed.

H2 Jackal snipers aren’t that bad as people make them out to be. The real problem is that there are spots that spawn seemingly infinite numbers of them and they’re hard to spot and you have to remember their positions. In H2, they were close enough for you to counter snipe effectively but in H3 and ODST (and Reach IIRC), they’re practically out of reach and that becomes a problem if you don’t have a sniper or mini-sniper with you.

> Halo 3 Pure Forms

Disagree.

They’re too slow. My sword Elites pwn them all the time. And all I need is a brute shot, sword, gravity hammer (to knock them off), or firebomb grenade to kill them and it is highly likely such equipment will be placed in proximity in such encounters unless 343 has also been affected by the disease of false difficulty.

> Halo Reach Elites.

Absolutely not. There’s nothing fun about them except when they’re glitched (no weapon Elites via Falcon, friendly Elites on WC, tiny Elites on The Package).

I personally want Elites like in CE, susceptible to the art of manipulation. There’s nothing satisfying about killing a Reach Elite unless it is Ultra and via assassination. Minors and Majors feel really cheap and are as annoying as Covenant dropships. Whereas in CE I killed Elites in a specialized manner, typically through assassination but also using grenades, guns, etc. Tricking Elites into sidestepping off a bridge with gun fire is satisfying. Using Elites to do all the work on Two Betrayals then killing them is satisfying.

> Y’know, I remember Bungie saying, before Reach came out, that they had added elite snipers to Legendary. Maybe they mentioned taking them out, but I don’t remember reading that and I was disappointed when I saw no such things (I mean, aside from that part on Nightfall). A pretty good way to make something Legendary is to add a jerk sniper.

I would have received that well since Bungie at least understands how to balance enemy snipers.

> I think the OP is probably thinking that a hypothetical new difficulty ought to be about tactical reaction rather than strategic reaction.

Yes, that’s correct. I like having multiple approaches to an enemy. If it weren’t for the high enemy damage, I’d go ninja in a lot more encounters rather than resorting to invincible friendly AI to do everything for me.

>

An interesting idea, making difficulty based on rank occurrences while leaving damage and health alone (mostly). But I think it kinda oversimplifies.