A possible solution to choppers

Right now it’s no surprise that the meta of the game is dominated by chopper openings. UNSC have a very hard time dealing with it since they have no tier 1 answer (except for Anders sentinels). The problem with choppers doesn’t seem to be the choppers themselves but how easy it is for the banished player to tech out of a very powerful opening. My solution to the chopper meta would be a minor energy increase from 15 to 50 energy. It may not seem like much of a nerf but it should add up and significantly delay a banished player from teching if they go shrapnel rounds. I don’t believe it’s a good idea to nerf the damage, health, or ram since this would make them lose there viability similar to what happen to the jackrabbits.

I actually wouldn’t mind this, perhaps with a change where they receive more damage from ramming.

I don’t think anyone would build them if they would cost 50 power, I definitely wouldn’t. Early game for UNSC you have to use grenades extremely well to battle the chopper rush, it’s rough but I’ve seen it done.

I feel removing Ram is the only way to fix them with out making them useless.

Increasing Ram recoil will not fix it as they usually have engineers with them. Increasing power might delay them getting to tech 2 but they can still take map control and tech quick with all the nodes they have.

Both UNSC and Banished factions need to have a way to be equal with Cutter in the early game. Currently, UNSC is too weak to beat Cutter early game and Banished are too strong early game.

I feel like a tech 1 air unit for both factions, like the wasp, would be nice. They would beat Scout vehicles and do decent damage (with upgrades) to Warthogs and Marauders to make them tech 2 viable. They can engage Marines/Grunts but they would get torn then up reasonable quickly as infantry beats air. With this you can buff Jack Rabbits again as they will now have an air counter.

I think if we gave rabbits guns from the beginning and increase support drone to 450 power then just either removing ram or nerfing it from choppers, it would balance out

Easy solution to choppers. Keep the price
make the gun upgrade tech 2.
make jack rabbits healing drone also tech 2.

Or make it so a scout unit can only be built out of a main base. Much like a sentinel.

Definitely a great idea.

Remember we were all having the same discussion about jackrabbits back in April? It’s almost like deja vu.

I like the energy increase idea as that alone would deter the techers from reaching shrapnel rounds as fast. My main problem with choppers is their ram ability 's splash damage. The ai pathfinding groups my units together and when I’m caught off guard, 3 or even 2 choppers can do about half damage in an instant to a group of infanty.

I say reduce the splash damage or get rid of it.

> 2533274795008809;3:
> I don’t think anyone would build them if they would cost 50 power, I definitely wouldn’t. Early game for UNSC you have to use grenades extremely well to battle the chopper rush, it’s rough but I’ve seen it done.

But this would keep them being a scout unit if they cost 50, and not a way to dominate early while teching right? So, this would solve the issue that is trying to be solved. I don’t play as Banished but choppers are their scout units right? I don’t think they are supposed to dominate the map early game. They nerfed the jackrabbits due to this sort of issue.

While I agree that it is very difficult to grenade micro effectively against the chopper rush, I think your post underscores the problem. Chopper rush is fairly easy to pull off and extremely difficult to combat for UNSC. That means it is imbalanced. It takes a ton of skill (and some luck) to counter a fairly easy tactic to implement. It should be somewhat easier to combat something that is somewhat easy to implement if you are properly prepared.

> 2663289422510355;9:
> > 2533274795008809;3:
> > I don’t think anyone would build them if they would cost 50 power, I definitely wouldn’t. Early game for UNSC you have to use grenades extremely well to battle the chopper rush, it’s rough but I’ve seen it done.
>
> But this would keep them being a scout unit if they cost 50, and not a way to dominate early while teching right? So, this would solve the issue that is trying to be solved. I don’t play as Banished but choppers are their scout units right? I don’t think they are supposed to dominate the map early game. They nerfed the jackrabbits due to this sort of issue.
>
> While I agree that it is very difficult to grenade micro effectively against the chopper rush, I think your post underscores the problem. Chopper rush is fairly easy to pull off and extremely difficult to combat for UNSC. That means it is imbalanced. It takes a ton of skill (and some luck) to counter a fairly easy tactic to implement. It should be somewhat easier to combat something that is somewhat easy to implement if you are properly prepared.

Not to mention grenade throw costs a hefty price to research

Just make scout vehicles have zero offensive powers. Seriously. The vehicle is for scouting, not attacking. Make them cheap with a good amount of health but have no offensive capabilities. Maybe people would build them more often and send to various bases to see what opponent is making. I rarely ever get scouted.

15 to 50 energy increase is a major increase. I would try doubling it first, to 30.

> 2533274843762975;1:
> Right now it’s no surprise that the meta of the game is dominated by chopper openings. UNSC have a very hard time dealing with it since they have no tier 1 answer (except for Anders sentinels). The problem with choppers doesn’t seem to be the choppers themselves but how easy it is for the banished player to tech out of a very powerful opening. My solution to the chopper meta would be a minor energy increase from 15 to 50 energy. It may not seem like much of a nerf but it should add up and significantly delay a banished player from teching if they go shrapnel rounds. I don’t believe it’s a good idea to nerf the damage, health, or ram since this would make them lose there viability similar to what happen to the jackrabbits.

no no no lets just nerf all the scouts so there only useing for scouting not for smashing bases
scouting thats it

> 2535435709736218;13:
> > 2533274843762975;1:
> > Right now it’s no surprise that the meta of the game is dominated by chopper openings. UNSC have a very hard time dealing with it since they have no tier 1 answer (except for Anders sentinels). The problem with choppers doesn’t seem to be the choppers themselves but how easy it is for the banished player to tech out of a very powerful opening. My solution to the chopper meta would be a minor energy increase from 15 to 50 energy. It may not seem like much of a nerf but it should add up and significantly delay a banished player from teching if they go shrapnel rounds. I don’t believe it’s a good idea to nerf the damage, health, or ram since this would make them lose there viability similar to what happen to the jackrabbits.
>
> no no no lets just nerf all the scouts so there only useing for scouting not for smashing bases
> scouting thats it

Scouts can’t really smash bases anymore as long as you have turrets and some support units

> 2533274927740213;14:
> > 2535435709736218;13:
> > > 2533274843762975;1:
> > > Right now it’s no surprise that the meta of the game is dominated by chopper openings. UNSC have a very hard time dealing with it since they have no tier 1 answer (except for Anders sentinels). The problem with choppers doesn’t seem to be the choppers themselves but how easy it is for the banished player to tech out of a very powerful opening. My solution to the chopper meta would be a minor energy increase from 15 to 50 energy. It may not seem like much of a nerf but it should add up and significantly delay a banished player from teching if they go shrapnel rounds. I don’t believe it’s a good idea to nerf the damage, health, or ram since this would make them lose there viability similar to what happen to the jackrabbits.
> >
> > no no no lets just nerf all the scouts so there only useing for scouting not for smashing bases
> > scouting thats it
>
> Scouts can’t really smash bases anymore as long as you have turrets and some support units

well every competitive player knows that haveing engineers is need to do a scout rush
then boom there goes your upgraded turrents

> 2535435709736218;15:
> > 2533274927740213;14:
> > > 2535435709736218;13:
> > > > 2533274843762975;1:
> > > > Right now it’s no surprise that the meta of the game is dominated by chopper openings. UNSC have a very hard time dealing with it since they have no tier 1 answer (except for Anders sentinels). The problem with choppers doesn’t seem to be the choppers themselves but how easy it is for the banished player to tech out of a very powerful opening. My solution to the chopper meta would be a minor energy increase from 15 to 50 energy. It may not seem like much of a nerf but it should add up and significantly delay a banished player from teching if they go shrapnel rounds. I don’t believe it’s a good idea to nerf the damage, health, or ram since this would make them lose there viability similar to what happen to the jackrabbits.
> > >
> > > no no no lets just nerf all the scouts so there only useing for scouting not for smashing bases
> > > scouting thats it
> >
> > Scouts can’t really smash bases anymore as long as you have turrets and some support units
>
> well every competitive player knows that haveing engineers is need to do a scout rush
> then boom there goes your upgraded turrents

Yeah, I know. But by that time you should have anti-vehicle to counter them.

Unless you’re talking about team matches, those are a different animal all together.

I’ve seen a lot of people in here saying that scout units should be nerfed to the point where they are unable to fight effectively in the early game. I have a few reasons why that is a bad idea. First off if you make it so that scout units are not effective at all at tier 1 then you force infantry only and who has the best early game infantry? That would be cutter. Cutter would be able to dominate with fast moving snipers against banished and other UNSC leaders. My second reason would be that I don’t believe in removing rushes from the game outright. It’s a valid tactic in any RTS game. The only problem that I have is that usually when rushes are countered or if they cause no damage to an enemy, they are supposed to set back the rusher. In halo wars 2 I see decimus players opening with shrapnel round choppers and then getting tech 2 at the same time as a player that is turtling. The rush itself however is easy to crush with turtling up and fast teching or using your own choppers with better micro.

grenades are a fine counter to choppers. Just dont “all units” Y-press on one chopper. You have to micro.

> 2580187286538736;4:
> I feel like a tech 1 air unit for both factions, like the wasp, would be nice. They would beat Scout vehicles and do decent damage (with upgrades) to Warthogs and Marauders to make them tech 2 viable. They can engage Marines/Grunts but they would get torn then up reasonable quickly as infantry beats air. With this you can buff Jack Rabbits again as they will now have an air counter.

I am aware that my thought process here is all over the places but I cover a lot of points here just stick with me here.

AIR VEHICLE
I like the idea of light air scout unit. Big issue with that is that anders wouldn’t be considered as special anymore since sentinels would just replace the air unit. Also, air is much more mobile than land for obvious reasons. A problem i already have with air is banshee and hornets are so fast; engineers slow down a banshee army which is okay except that nightingales are just as fast as the already speedy hornets making that deadly army even harder to chase and kill. So with adding an air scout vehicle you would have to make it slower than hornets/bashees where it can’t just circle bases and kite around the units, or give it low health to counteract the speed. low health would make sense since it would be a scout vehicle. Since infantry would beat them, they wouldn’t be super effective against bases (hopefully) early game since you can pump our infantry easily. Sentinels were too good against infantry and were wicked fast and had a speed upgrade at tech three so they were so damn good, plus they melted bases. Choppers are a huge problem because the only thing early game you can make are infantry which get lit up by them unless you can micro well, and scout vehicles which, unless you both went for choppers, you wont have the stopping power to take them all out and defend effectively. The scout air vehicle could be pumped out to counter the choppers, which would solve this problem for the most part with proper balancing against infantry and buildings. With a new air unit comes more rushes with that unit and we all know how annoying and OP sentinels were before their numerous patches, so they would have to make them pretty ineffective at base killing, really their only use would be to counter choppers and I guess technically jack rabbits although those aren’t really much of a problem anymore. I do like the idea of a scout air vehicle it seems cool and could create some cool synergies with rushes.

Also, realistically, they won’t add another unit to the game, they have their hands full just pumping out leader after leader every month while trying to balance the game too. If they slowed down the new leader dlcs and focused on these issues and put their full team on balancing it, then maybe they would introduce a new air vehicle. Maybe the next leaders special unit will be another air vehicle like the sentinel, who knows.

SIMPLER SOLUTION
A common strategy now is scout early and if you see 2 choppers or more, its a chopper rush and prepare with turrets and tech 2 early for cyclops or hunters. Again a problem with this is that they dont get set back enough if they chopper rush, they usually are right on par with you in terms of tech speed. A simpler solution is make choppers cost maybe 35-40 power, enough to set back the tech 2 push but not halt it entirely. That way when they commit to choppers, they are risking something in later game if their rush fails. Ultimately, as others have said, there is no penalty to chopper rushing, they are really strong and don’t set you back from your enemy. While i like the scout air idea, higher power cost might be a much simpler solution.

If you don’t scout and then get rushed by choppers and weren’t ready at all, that’s your fault, but if you scout and then your counter still doesn’t set you head of the enemy, then that’s a balancing issue, which is what we have here.

Excuse any punctuation errors or spelling errors I made.

sorry for the double post