A more realistic way of thinking about a CSR

For those of you still on the fence about whether the upcoming CSR should be implemented in-game or not, I’ve attempted to make it into a slightly more realistic scenario.

Now, let’s say that you work extremely hard and put all of your dedication into something, and the fruit of your hard work is a car. The harder you work, and the more effort and hours you put into whatever it is you are doing to receive said car, will affect the status of car you get. higher status cars are given to the people who work hard towards their goal, while beaters are given to people who slack and don’t care. This is a pretty normal and realistic outcome in life.

Considering this scenario, you now have a car that reflects in complete form how hard you have worked towards it. You will either have complete pride in it, and be eccentric to drive it and show it off, or you will be embarrassed to be seen in it, and have incentive to work harder and improve it. No one wants to have a '92 Toyota corolla when there’s others tearing up the highways in a Lambo. You’ll begin to work harder to achieve that goal.

Unless, we consider a second scenario.

In this situation, you still receive a certain status car as a representation of your work ethic, but you don’t actually drive this one. It’s more of a personal gratification kind of thing. It sits in your garage, for only you and those interested enough to go see it, but generally it’s just there, collecting dust. Heck, you don’t even really check it that often. it doesn’t affect you’re actions and it won’t give you a reputation, so why bother improving it? No one will see it, and you won’t see anyone else’s. You have no incentive to improve your car because it isn’t visible to those around you. You won’t even have to see what others have worked towards! You can skate by in a ignorant bliss, never bothered or envious of what others have.

I think you can see where I’m going with this. A visible CSR in game promotes a more competitive and gratifying experience. You have to work hard towards upgrading your status, and work even harder to keep it. No one wants to be the 22 in a game of 45-50s, so they will work harder to reach a higher rank. ask anyone that got a 50 in any previous CSR visible game the feeling when they first hit that rank. It’s indescribable. Absolutely incredible. Euphoric, even. And the pride you have in getting it makes all the gameplay worth it. And there’s even MORE to be said in maintaining it and playing on it.

This is a necessary part of keeping Halo competitive and maintaining it’s longevity. The community has spoken, BS Angel. You cannot ignore us any longer on this topic.

Now, I can see your reasoning for why it should be on Waypoint.I get it. It gives “less incentive for cheaters and de-rankers” and helps keep the halo experience competitive. It allows for changes to be made more easily if any bugs/glitches are found in the coding, along with making it easier to ban known cheaters. These are fairly good reasons for you to have for why it should be Waypoint bound. And with all honesty, having it accessible from my phone would make it just as easy to view as in game, as far as my own rank goes at least.

But let’s make sure you understand that your reasoning for it being on Waypoint is only positive in your eyes, and can/has been discredited by multiple community members and posters alike.

  • Saying you are doing this to discourage cheating is a good hearted idea, but it doesn’t actually do anything. Do you honestly believe that a group of hackers is going to stop cheating just because you view a rank on Waypoint? No. It’s the rank that matters to cheaters, not where you see it.

  • De-rankers Only existed because of the way the CSR worked in previous iterations of Halo. I have complete faith that a team of developers could produce an algorithm that would negate the idea of such practice and take it out of the equation indefinitely.

  • Viewing the CSR rankings on your computer is something absolutely doable by all people that will have a rank. However, Not everyone has a phone to do this with, making it a serious hassle to view their progress, and the ranks of those in game with them (although that’s a complete hassle to everyone with a Waypoint CSR as it is). in either situation You’re making it a situationable system where a “Seamless interaction” is only doable with a smartphone.

  • There have been multiple polls showing by a striking margin the amount of people that want this in game. I mean, a ridiculous amount somewhere in the 95%/5% area. Ignoing that would be a terrible decision, both business and community wise.

This is something you need to think about, 343i. You can’t look at the numbers, polls, discussions, arguments, commentaries, and videso as to why this needs to be implemented in-game and just ignore them. And do you know why? Because Halo was the only game that had it, and that’s what made it different. That’s the only reason I, and many people I know, played it over COD/Gears. Once you stray from what made a game great, what do you have?

Thank you for what you have done so far, but you must listen to the community on this one. The wrong decision will have consequences that your company cannot stand to suffer this early into the franchise.

Again, thank you for your consideration.

In-game CSR is just ego stroking. Those poll posts are mostly ignored by people who don’t care about in-game CSR.

> In-game CSR is just ego stroking. Those poll posts are mostly ignored by people who don’t care about in-game CSR.

And you don’t think that getting a 50 and having pride in all the hard work put into it should be shown to those around you? Bragging rights are a lot more prevalent in the world of gaming than I think you’re understanding.

YES! This is a great post. I would love to see 343’s response to this…

> YES! This is a great post. I would love to see 343’s response to this…

They have given no solid reasons why it must be through Waypoint, rather than in-game. And something of this magnitude deserves a list of viable reasons as to it’s way of use.

I’d also like to hear a reason or two as to why they have been ignoring the millions of cries for it’s in-game status, along with why it must take until April to be released.

343’s response would be that it isn’t going to be in-game. It just isn’t. From what I understand, if it were up to Frankie, it wouldn’t exist at all. It doesn’t matter if it “should” be in-game…pretty sure it won’t.

If it was in-game, anyone who saw your ranking wouldn’t believe that you earned it legitimately anyway. Even if you did, people would claim that you boosted or have a second account or bought it or whatever. We all know how sensitive forum-goers can be, so there would definitely be people complaining about people giving them grief about it.

I don’t care either way, but I don’t even need the ranking system to make me feel good about my accomplishments in the game or to continue playing. I enjoy the game as it is and anything else is just icing.

Multichem: Look in the “Upcoming Competitive Playlist” thread for some responses on this by Frankie himself. For all we know, the way the game is coded won’t allow it to be in-game. It might take a recall to re-code the discs and the UI…that just isn’t going to happen.

> 343’s response would be that it isn’t going to be in-game. It just isn’t. From what I understand, if it were up to Frankie, it wouldn’t exist at all. It doesn’t matter if it “should” be in-game…pretty sure it won’t.
>
> If it was in-game, anyone who saw your ranking wouldn’t believe that you earned it legitimately anyway. Even if you did, people would claim that you boosted or have a second account or bought it or whatever. We all know how sensitive forum-goers can be, so there would definitely be people complaining about people giving them grief about it.
>
> I don’t care either way, but I don’t even need the ranking system to make me feel good about my accomplishments in the game or to continue playing. I enjoy the game as it is and anything else is just icing.
>
> Multichem: Look in the “Upcoming Competitive Playlist” thread for some responses on this by Frankie himself. For all we know, the way the game is coded won’t allow it to be in-game. It might take a recall to re-code the discs and the UI…that just isn’t going to happen.

I’ve heard about the problem with the UI, and it’s extremely disheartening. And to be frank, it seriously pisses me off they would ship the game without the option to have a ranking system after seeing the affects that no ranking had on Reach. It’s ignorant and stupid, and shows a scary lack of judgement by this company.

Rant over.

Now, please explain to me your accomplishments, as you see them. Your K/D? Win/Loss ratio? Your knowledge of each weapons use and it’s plights in battlefield scenarios? I would like to hear what you’re proud of. I ask this because I feel proud of nothing in this game, so far. Everything is a grinding function, with no competitive value and no reason for me to get better. It’s mind numbing what this game has turned into. The only way you have fun with through customs, which don’t even have the support they deserve.

So tell me, what are you proud of in Halo 4?

I think all of this CSR talk is pointless unless we have the CSR\BPR used for matchmaking purposes to match players of similar skill levels - this would make for much better\enjoyable games for players of all skill levels.

I personally do not care of my CSR\BPR is visible in game or just on Waypoint as long as it is actually used for matchmaking and not just some meaningless “e--Yoink!-” that kids will boost for.

On a supporting thought bringing back the ranked\social playlists with an seperate ranking for each list would also help make better games for Halo players of all skill levels.

Is CSR going to be just your Trueskill rating? If so then I think it should NOT be visible in-game.

If it’s going to be some other system of 343’s design, then I don’t care if you can see it.

The difference for me is that I understand Trueskill and value its conclusions, but also recognize that it’s not designed to be seen. However a ranking system of 343’s own design will be more like a number derived from multiple stats, which isn’t any different from just seeing a service record which is already public.

> I think all of this CSR talk is pointless unless we have the CSR\BPR used for matchmaking purposes to match players of similar skill levels - this would make for much better\enjoyable games for players of all skill levels.
>
> I personally do not care of my CSR\BPR is visible in game or just on Waypoint as long as it is actually used for matchmaking and not just some meaningless “e--Yoink!-” that kids will boost for.
>
> On a supporting thought bringing back the ranked\social playlists with an seperate ranking for each list would also help make better games for Halo players of all skill levels.

I agree completely that The CSR’s main purpose should be to match people with similarly ranked players. 100% agreed. It promotes even playing fields and (generally) doesn’t allow for a shut out or boring play. And that’s the most important part of the system itself.

But again, and I feel that I’m going to need to use this word a lot, where is the pride? You call it an “e--Yoink!-”, I call it something to work towards. I can’t just play a game over and over again with no purpose. And I’ll never understand why people can, but I digress.

My point is, again, What do you have to aim for if their is no top tier? If you have no way of showing your work and your dedication? What do you play for?

> Is CSR going to be just your Trueskill rating? If so then I think it should NOT be visible in-game.
>
> If it’s going to be some other system of 343’s design, then I don’t care if you can see it.
>
> The difference for me is that I understand Trueskill and value its conclusions, but also recognize that it’s not designed to be seen. However a ranking system of 343’s own design will be more like a number derived from multiple stats, which isn’t any different from just seeing a service record which is already public.

Right, I agree. a trueskill ranking is too basic for a game as complex as this. I imagine it will be something of 343i’s creation, with multiple factors included in it’s final rank.

Personally, I take pride on a match by match basis. If I die a couple of times to the same person, it feels great to take them out and get my revenge. I take pride in killing a DMR user, who probably thinks they are going to win, with something like the AR. If I perform better in this match than the previous one and so on. Also, I will be proud of my Protector helmet once I earn it, mostly because I think it looks awesome.

To me, it’s the little things. I don’t care if no one else knows my little victories. Chances are they don’t look at my stats post-game unless I was some unstoppable menace to them anyway.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand why people want it in-game and I will probably get on waypoint to check out my rankings. But the reality is that it probably won’t and there’s nothing I can do about it.

I have heard that Frankie absolutely hated the ranking stuff in Halo 3, so he probably made a concession to even allow it to exist. There might have been an ultimatum of “Not in-game or not at all.” Of course, the other possibility is that MS wants people to use Waypoint…which they created to be the one-stop-shop for all things Halo.

I have a feeling Waypoint isn’t quite as popular as MS wants it to be so instead of the Frankie stuff or the UI stuff, it could just be politics. In which case…there would be the possibility of it being added after a while.

We’ll never find out if that’s the case though…they wouldn’t even own up to the mistake with Crimson…

> Personally, I take pride on a match by match basis. If I die a couple of times to the same person, it feels great to take them out and get my revenge. I take pride in killing a DMR user, who probably thinks they are going to win, with something like the AR. If I perform better in this match than the previous one and so on. Also, I will be proud of my Protector helmet once I earn it, mostly because I think it looks awesome.
>
> To me, it’s the little things. I don’t care if no one else knows my little victories. Chances are they don’t look at my stats post-game unless I was some unstoppable menace to them anyway.
>
> Don’t get me wrong, I understand why people want it in-game and I will probably get on waypoint to check out my rankings. But the reality is that it probably won’t and there’s nothing I can do about it.
>
> I have heard that Frankie absolutely hated the ranking stuff in Halo 3, so he probably made a concession to even allow it to exist. There might have been an ultimatum of “Not in-game or not at all.” Of course, the other possibility is that MS wants people to use Waypoint…which they created to be the one-stop-shop for all things Halo.
>
> I have a feeling Waypoint isn’t quite as popular as MS wants it to be so instead of the Frankie stuff or the UI stuff, it could just be politics. In which case…there would be the possibility of it being added after a while.
>
> We’ll never find out if that’s the case though…they wouldn’t even own up to the mistake with Crimson…

Of coure it’s not as successful as they wanted, but implementing a CSR on it just for the need of traffic is just a slap to the face of the players.

As far as I can tell, there aren’t necessarily any players that don’t want it in-game, just players that don’t care. And that’s hardly a reason to deny it to those who do want it.

Many people have made this same point more elegantly without the use of a faulty sports car parallel. Besides, what counts is what’s under the hood, and you’ve got to stop and crack it open to show people that anyways.

If you want to know your rank, you can go online (or even on Waypoint) and find your rank. It does exist. I will never understand why this isn’t good enough for most people. The most practical use you could get out of it being visible in the lobby would be to shout at people “Hey look!!! I’m a 50!!!”. I can’t think a single practical use besides that.

Incentive, ranks are not. If the game plays well, you will have the incentive to go and have fun. If it does not, you will not want to play it, regardless of your rank 50 profile.

> > Personally, I take pride on a match by match basis. If I die a couple of times to the same person, it feels great to take them out and get my revenge. I take pride in killing a DMR user, who probably thinks they are going to win, with something like the AR. If I perform better in this match than the previous one and so on. Also, I will be proud of my Protector helmet once I earn it, mostly because I think it looks awesome.
> >
> > To me, it’s the little things. I don’t care if no one else knows my little victories. Chances are they don’t look at my stats post-game unless I was some unstoppable menace to them anyway.
> >
> > Don’t get me wrong, I understand why people want it in-game and I will probably get on waypoint to check out my rankings. But the reality is that it probably won’t and there’s nothing I can do about it.
> >
> > I have heard that Frankie absolutely hated the ranking stuff in Halo 3, so he probably made a concession to even allow it to exist. There might have been an ultimatum of “Not in-game or not at all.” Of course, the other possibility is that MS wants people to use Waypoint…which they created to be the one-stop-shop for all things Halo.
> >
> > I have a feeling Waypoint isn’t quite as popular as MS wants it to be so instead of the Frankie stuff or the UI stuff, it could just be politics. In which case…there would be the possibility of it being added after a while.
> >
> > We’ll never find out if that’s the case though…they wouldn’t even own up to the mistake with Crimson…
>
> Of coure it’s not as successful as they wanted, but implementing a CSR on it just for the need of traffic is just a slap to the face of the players.
>
> As far as I can tell, <mark>there aren’t necessarily any players that don’t want it in-game</mark>, just players that don’t care. And that’s hardly a reason to deny it to those who do want it.

There are many people that don’t want it, I am one competitive player that does not want it to be visible for many reasons some which have been stated by 343. Adding it to be visible in-game doesn’t accomplish anything nor does it have any legitimate positives for the entire community.

It also isn’t hard to use a laptop or a mobile phone or tablet in order to check in on your stats and CSR Progress after each game or after a few games to see how much you need to rank up.

I don’t care if its in game or not I just want it to pair players appropriately and have some kind of way of seeing what it is. I understand why 343i makes it Waypoint only so I don’t fault them for the decision.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq9Y-X8gI64
-Sauceyyyyy on The Competitive playlist and CSR

I also understand why everyone wants an in game ranking system, but if the system is going to match you up against people of your rank, then what is the point of it being in game? I know many people are saying that it will not be perfect and your going to be matched up to people who are lower at times, but what if your not?

Is it really that important to see a lobby full of people who have the same rank? And why is everyone complaining about not having or feeling like going on their laptop or phone to look it up when YOU CAN DOWNLOAD WAYPOINT ON TO YOUR XBOX?

The satisfaction should come out of doing amazing in games and watching your rank go up to the point where your playing with the elites, and going to waypoint to see that you have become better than you ever were. Moments where you have 24 kills and 3 deaths, 25 and 1 death, or even 30 and 0 deaths.

I can also understand that some people want it for moments where your going up against someone who completely out ranks you, but you mop the floor with them.

If you ask me, what everyone should be asking for is a leaderboard that is separated by ranks.

Visible Ranks give players motivation by…

Helping players increase their skills

Giving Meaning by showing players how their work contributes and matters

Setting milestones and marking progress, not just end results.

Recognition for accomplishments through challenging work.

I wonder how the progressive system motivates players?

I think it might be helpful to weigh the pros, and the cons of a VIGR.

Pros:

  1. Incentive to keep playing

  2. Reason to progress as a player

  3. Bragging Rights

  4. Goal to Accomplish

  5. Ranked playlists are given more attention to balance due to the VIGRS

  6. Increases population longevity

Cons

  1. System Exploitation (Cheaters/Boosters)

  2. Player bashing (due to bragging rights)

So that’s 6 to 2 and i think everyone can agree the cons against the VIGR are pitiful and petty. If anyone has anything else to add to that list let me know.

> In-game CSR is just ego stroking. Those poll posts are mostly ignored by people who don’t care about in-game CSR.

I would say hiding ranks so no one feels butt hurt is ego stroking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=317AP3DzqXc