a look at btb

So I decided to make this thread based on my experience in Big Team Battle, from playing in and against teams of 8, to being a lone wolf and playing as a vehicle user to playing defense at base. I’d like to think have a pretty good view on what is good and what is bad in this playlist.

Starting with an issue before we even get into the game, I’d like to talk about the voting system and matchmaking. As we all know, you get 3 options to vote for. The problem with Big Team is that these options normally consist of 2 maps, instead of utilizing 3 maps. We normally see something like this:
Map A slayer
Map A objective
Map B slayer/objective.
There are plenty of maps to choose from, so why not make use of them, especially with the influx of maps thanks to Heavy settings!

Another issue, something I consider to be massive, is that teams of 6-8 are able to match against teams of singles. This almost always leads to the team of singles being beaten so bad, most players will quit out or hide the whole game. We also know that most teams of 8 like to abuse the fact they will match against singles, and pad stats. Adding big party restrictions on the playlist will make it much more enjoyable for the majority, and actually make BTB competitive for teams.

Continuing onward, we now get into gametypes, and maps of BTB. The current gametypes in BTB are : Heavies, 2 flag, assault, neutral assault, one bomb, one flag, snipers and slayer.

Heavies, being the most recent addition is what I will start with. Heavies is actually a welcome change to what was becoming a stale and boring playlist that was revolving more around who could cross map DMR more, rather than is being an epic clash of vehicular action backed by troops. Heavies has enabled, for the most part, vehicles to get back in actions and do some serious damage on the battlefield.

My main issue is how many power weapons there are compared to how many vehicles there are. Bear in mind, the DMR and grenades are extremely effective against lighter vehicles, and that there should only really be heavy weapons to counter the heavy vehicles. What I feel the authors of Cragmire, Graveyard and Breakout have done is have weapons available to counter all types of vehicle. Personally I disagree with this, and think that the numbers of heavy weapons need reducing as it is pretty overkill at the moment.

Asphalt being, in my opinion, the best thing to happen to BTB has done a great job in balancing the weaponry and vehicles. My only issue is the “light Speed” glitch that occurs on it at least twice a game. If you do not know about this glitch, it is where a covenant vehicle is flung away at rapid speeds, normally resulting in death, or vehicle destruction. Both teams wraiths do this off spawn, as they are placed on top of a join between two coliseum walls.

Delta Facility was a great mix of vehicular and Troop action, although I thought the middle walkway was extremely overpowering, especially with laser being up there. Vehicles had little chance of stopping the laser user, and the person with laser could easily retreat off the walkway to sniper spawn and then to base. I hope to see it return though.

Boneyard. Now this is a map that disappoints me. Not because it plays badly, but because the full map isn’t used properly. Graveyard attempts to take a stab at populating the elite invasion spawn by adding some incentive to go there in the form of a Gauss warthog, but it generally ends up not being noticed, used or even known in most games due to its location. A nice way for someone like me to pick up a free heavy weapon. I feel that one sided objective on Boneyard plays out to long, and that the area the flag is located in makes it ridiculously tough to capture without having to sacrifice a few deaths until you manage to throw the flag off the staircase. Only then are you truly able to get the flag scored. Slayer on this map is pretty unbalanced also. The team that spawns staircase almost always wins simply because they have better spawns. A team with a tank behind the other teams initial spawn can spawn kill at both initial, and phase 2 base. Same with banshee. The only time blues get any sort of edge is with the sniper/rocket spawn. But even then reds get the walkway from banshee from which they can pound the enemies constantly before the even get near rockets.

I also feel that the scorpion at the start needs to be moved. The elite invasion spawn would work well, and cause some movement on that side for once. As it stands, the scorpion usually ends up destroyed within 20 seconds. Mainly because people can just drop on to it from the surrounding walkway, wall or jet pack from banshee.

On to Spire. That silly map with the massive tower that ends up being the main play space for most the game. Cragmire had it right. I think normal Spire needs to also have the top blocked off. It encourages camping and slow gameplay. I would also suggest either moving BFG initial spawn or moving Banshee spawn. At the moment BFG initial spawn is guaranteed Banshee as long as someone goes to it in a vehicle. I would also like to see this map play with the far side (area behind BFG Falcon) blocked off also. Not saying it would be good, but I would like to see if it works.

Now Boardwalk. A map I’d like to see removed. It is too small for BTB, and has no vehicular action what so ever. It’s pretty poor as a map also, even in 4 v 4 situations. I don’t see why it is in BTB, and I hope it isn’t in the future. It needs to be replaced by a map (forged) that allows a ghost/revenant movement around a map that is troop based. So players on there feet will be the main force, but a ghost or two can move about and cause some trouble. Think longshore.

Wayont is a nice map, but the frame rate when looking from on base to another is pretty poor. An easy fix is to delete the lights in them and try to reduce item count. I’m pretty sure removing the lights should do the trick as they are well known for causing frame rate issues. The map plays pretty well and is a favorite in objective. Slayer isn’t so great as most people just camp the bases. I think more incentive is needed outside the bases to move about the map. Revenant/s or Ghost/s at each satellite dish should do the job.

Renegade, a map based in the canyon, is another map that I feel could be replaced. It is barely voted, at least in all the lobbies I am in. This is probably because the map doesn’t play to well. The banshees normally end up dead pretty fast thanks to the snipers at base, and the lack of cover they have. Ground vehicles feel pretty useless as the ground troops can do all they need from center map, which they can’t get to. Most end up being used as transport. Sometimes vehicles can trap people in the base after a successful laser rush, but the sniper, plasma pistol, stickies and grenade launcher quite those attacks pretty sharpish.

Reserved for other maps.

I’ve noticed that spawncamping usually tends to happen in vehicles on wide open maps where the party spawn on the outside. I think they need to rework the spawning and base structure so that they can spawn within the base and not be killed by a tank waiting for them. Which can also give them a chance to counterattack.

Also, I think we should try spawn immunity. Try from 3 up to 10 seconds of immunity when spawning to give them a chance. You can still “spawncamp” but will need to do so in the middle of the map when you’re holding the line.

I’m not a fan of invincibility of any form on any game to be honest. Especially FPS games. I think they should work on the spawn system, or make some changes to the spawn placement. Giving people invincibility is a cheap way out of an issue like this.

Also main post updated with a video to show spawn killing on Boneyard.

> I’ve noticed that spawncamping usually tends to happen in vehicles on wide open maps where the party spawn on the outside. I think they need to rework the spawning and base structure so that they can spawn within the base and not be killed by a tank waiting for them. Which can also give them a chance to counterattack.
>
> Also, I think we should try spawn immunity. Try from 3 up to 10 seconds of immunity when spawning to give them a chance. You can still “spawncamp” but will need to do so in the middle of the map when you’re holding the line.

No, we’ve seen how well spawn immunity works in battlefield, it is the most rage inducing thing when you spray someone down, and his teammates comes around the corner in walking armor lock.

Same with Gears of War. It sucks balls when the spawns swap to the side you’re on and you get wrecked by a guy who can’t be killed yet.

Don’t want spawn camping? Then give the teams an actual base or protected/sheltered area instead of mainly spawning out in the open.

> Another issue, something I consider to be massive, is that teams of 6-8 are able to match against teams of singles. This almost always leads to the team of singles being beaten so bad, most players will quit out or hide the whole game. We also know that most teams of 8 like to abuse the fact they will match against singles, and pad stats. Adding big party restrictions on the playlist will make it much more enjoyable for the majority, and actually make BTB competitive for teams.

Thank you!!! This is my biggest complaint with BTB. When I don’t have any friends online i normally don’t wanna face an entire team of spawn camping stat padders.

no.

Painkiller does not belong in halo AT ALL and im ashamed to know what it is.

> I’ve noticed that spawncamping usually tends to happen in vehicles on wide open maps where the party spawn on the outside. I think they need to rework the spawning and base structure so that they can spawn within the base and not be killed by a tank waiting for them. Which can also give them a chance to counterattack

Spawning only in the base would completely ruin objective gametypes. Imagine a neutral bomb game:

-6 of the 8 players are on the opposing team are on respawn
-you decide to move the bomb into the base for an arm because there are only 2 people alive to stop you
-you start to arm the bomb, but wait, one by one all 6 of those players spawn within 10 feet of you
-you die they get bomb
-you get punished for playing objective the right way

Spawn camping is not necessarily a bad thing. It only happens on a large scale when you have unbalanced teams cause by various things.

  1. full party vs randoms, can be fixed by having some sort of party restrictions
  2. quitters, fixed by having ranks that you would lose if you quit/lost (like h2/h3) giving you an incentive to stay in the game
  3. unbalanced teams due to matchmaking system, this one is a little more complicated:

When you have a lower population, trueskill can’t work as well because there aren’t enough people searching at a given time to create even teams every game.

The system doesn’t have the luxury of saying “this person wouldn’t fit well in this game” because there is nobody else to replace him with.

This low population is caused by the game itself not being up to par resulting in not as many people playing it. So the only solution to unbalanced teams is to make a better game in the first place so that trueskill can work properly.

> 2. quitters, fixed by having ranks that you would lose if you quit/lost (like h2/h3) giving you an incentive to stay in the game

Horrible memories of de-rankers resurfacing

“NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!”

I think a large part of the problem is the low population. A fair bit of that population is teams of 8 who like to think they “run BTB” because they constantly get matched against teams of randoms.

My biggest annoyance with BTB is Hemmorhage: It plays horribly and it’s voted literally every time it appears. The gameplay is static, boring, and generally just annoying as hell. It pretty much represents everything I don’t want from BTB; most players will camp at base for Sniper and then just sit in the cliffs, or they’ll just cross-map DMR 24/7. The flow sucks. Nobody seems to really want the Plasma Launcher, teams will rarely venture out of their own half of the map, I find. There’s no real incentive to go out and work for a weapon, and it shows. Maybe if it was a Laser in middle, there would be some movement. That’s the real reason why it sucks in my opinion; you don’t have to work for anything. It’s all just at your base. You can just sit there until it spawns, as most people do.

Personally, I’d reduce the ammo and increase the spawn time on the Sniper, because I know that what I would actually do (Remove it completely) would be seen as sacrilegious. Have a Laser at middle (And I mean middle, not closer to one of the teleporters) and Fuel Rod Guns with one clip of ammo near each team’s teleporter. I feel this would have people actually moving out of their bases and trying to secure other areas of the map, which would vastly improve the map.

i find your "Big Party Restriction technique faulty and it would infuriate alot of players who have loads of friends on reach. if big parties of 8 cant play btb then what are they suposed to play? 4v4 slayer? i dont think so. they would go to custom games if they wanted to do that. you “kids” should learn to adapt to your losses and accept them. if you dont like btb then dont play it, you keep complaining about it then why play it? go back to living dead or action sack if you cant hang in with the big boys and try your best. or you could bring your own full party of 8? that would work better as well. also try communicting with your randoms, use your mics. ive gone into btb by myself got paired up with a bunch of low ranking randoms, we ended up winning because we all plugged in our mics and communicated, i even had 2 spanish speaking teamates and i translated for both of them to my english speaking ones and vice-versa. when it comes down to winning any game mode its always communication skills. not because you have a bunch of randoms on your team facing a big party of 8.

Full teams should just be matched with other full teams would fix lone problem. I’m not sure how big the population is in BTB though so this might not work.

Asphalt on BTB heavies is a bit of a lagfest at times. But then again i prefer 4v4 playlists or multi team. Even though I have only just started playing reach again since last October.

This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members.

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

What a great quote from typical Halo -Yoink-:

> you “kids” should learn to adapt to your losses and accept them. if you dont like btb then dont play it, you keep complaining about it then why play it? go back to living dead or action sack if you cant hang in with the big boys and try your best. or you could bring your own full party of 8?

Here are some more:
“Kids.”, “BK.”, “You’re baaad.”, “You mad bro?” “You mad because my mom just showed you her -Yoink!-?”, “I just got these new flip-flops at Hollister.”

-Ballz-

> i find your "Big Party Restriction technique faulty and it would infuriate alot of players who have loads of friends on reach. if big parties of 8 cant play btb then what are they suposed to play? 4v4 slayer? i dont think so. they would go to custom games if they wanted to do that. you “kids” should learn to adapt to your losses and accept them. if you dont like btb then dont play it, you keep complaining about it then why play it? go back to living dead or action sack if you cant hang in with the big boys and try your best. or you could bring your own full party of 8? that would work better as well. also try communicting with your randoms, use your mics. ive gone into btb by myself got paired up with a bunch of low ranking randoms, we ended up winning because we all plugged in our mics and communicated, i even had 2 spanish speaking teamates and i translated for both of them to my english speaking ones and vice-versa. when it comes down to winning any game mode its always communication skills. not because you have a bunch of randoms on your team facing a big party of 8.

Yeah, that wall I wrote is totally a massive complaint and not a thought out, decently written post what so ever… Right, moving on.

No point did I say they can’t play together. All I said was that they would have to play other teams. Coming from your 1337 attitude and obvious lean towards competitive play, someone like yourself should enjoy having some actual competition. I like Big Team very much myself and don’t see why wanting to change a few things is so bad, especially when these things negatively impact gameplay, and the players themselves. Also not everyone has 100 friends ready to play Reach, let alone BTB. I always have my mic in, it’s just finding people who don’t sit in Party/Private Chat or have theirs plugged in as well.

Communication is a massive factor yes, which is why teams of 6-8 dominate so easily. But you can’t tell me that those people in that team knowing most weapon, vehicle and player spawns has nothing to do with it, cause it does. Which is why I dislike facing them with randoms. Most randoms who go in BTB alone have little clue about spawns or areas to control.

The only people I see this infuriating is the stat padders and the people who like easy games as a team of 8. Having big party restrictions would finally give some teams of 8 the boot up the back side they need. Because at the moment it’s like a game of Gruntpocalypse for most teams of 8.

Also I can’t force anyone to play with me, plug in a mic or get out of party chat, so that argument is pretty much invalid.

Spawn protection isn’t a bad thing. It’s in Gears of War because without it the victor will go to whoever can set up a spawn trap first. Especially when people spawn with Shotguns.

It’s needed in Battlefield, otherwise people will just steal the other teams vehicles and spawncamp them with it. Hell, even with spawn protection they forgot to add it into the AA cannons and plenty of people managed to sneak into the other teams AA gun and spawn camp their vehicles with it.

It’s a simple idea that deserves at least a trial, you can’t call it a bad idea when you’ve never tried it.

As for Objective based games, if the bases are protected enough then you can still get the objective while protecting yourself.

I dont like reading.

> Spawn protection isn’t a bad thing. It’s in Gears of War because without it the victor will go to whoever can set up a spawn trap first. Especially when people spawn with Shotguns.
>
> It’s needed in Battlefield, otherwise people will just steal the other teams vehicles and spawncamp them with it. Hell, even with spawn protection they forgot to add it into the AA cannons and plenty of people managed to sneak into the other teams AA gun and spawn camp their vehicles with it.
>
> It’s a simple idea that deserves at least a trial, you can’t call it a bad idea when you’ve never tried it.
>
> As for Objective based games, if the bases are protected enough then you can still get the objective while protecting yourself.

Gears doesn’t really work with gametypes that allow respawning anyway. There map design, and there spawn design should have been changed with the introduction of a respawning gametype. The devs took the easy way out, flipping spawns and adding invincibility. What they should have done is some map redesigning and some spawn work.

Same with battlefield. Instead of offering more spawn locations in areas a team controls, they added spawn protection. It’s laziness on the devs part, and the AA thing is an unfortunate glitch, but a glitch that shows what I mean. Without invincibility, the devs would actually have to work on the spawn system.

Halo doesn’t need this because we can’t ever 100% predict the spawn in most cases. On BF and GoW you can. Halo has designated spawns like these games yes, but they are much more complicated in where they spawn you with more factors than what you control and what the enemy controls. With spawns in Halo they have “weights” determined by:

Where your team is.
Where the enemy is.
Projectiles/firing in the area.
How many deaths you had on/near them.
How many times you have safely moved from that spawn.
If someone is looking at that spawn.

Luckily with Halo we’re already on the way to a great spawn system even though people have dissected it and found out ways to influence or predict spawns, but at the moment the placement needs working out, especially in BTB. Plenty of maps spawn people out of cover, away from any decent weapons and in enemy sight lines. Some maps need to be adjusted to offer better cover off spawn, or better spawn placement. Hemorrhage is a great example, with the spawn by the mountainside for both teams (one is near some trees, with a small hill in front, and the other is on an incline with the nearest cover being 3 rocks which holds shotgun.) I think 343i need to adjust maps, even if it means “ruining the classic feel” in some cases.

I’m willing to see it go to trial, but from what I’ve seen on other games, I would say it wouldn’t work.