A generation gap....................

Games Other Halo
1

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A large divide has occurred in the halo community, some people want 343 to carry on “INOVATING” and taking halo further away from its roots whilst some me included want halo to return to the so called Glory days of Halo which for me was halo 3 in order words returning halo to its roots and the golden triangle guns, melee and grenades so no armour abilities, no perks, no personal ordinance, no support upgrades and no custom load outs.

The reason I believe this gap has occurred is simply through a generation gap, the more mature gamer appreciates a challenge and is willing to put extensive hours into a game to become better whilst the new generation seek instant gratification, and aren’t willing to spend time grinding and learning how to become better at the game i.e weapon respawn times. so games are reducing their skill gaps to accommodate this new generation.

To prove this ill use Ninja gaiden as an example, anyone who played the first instalment will tell you it was one of the hardest games you could play and yet was extremely popular but then over time it became more and more accessible or dumbed down and ninja gaiden 3 was a stroll through the park in comparison to the original which actually caused its popularity to dramatically decline.

This new generation is why 343 decided to abandon a more classic halo 4 and introduced and expanded upon custom loadouts, armour abilities, ordinance (no more weapon respawns), support upgrades, tactical packages, J|P and created stupid medals such as distraction, so every1 can feel like a winner and be instantly gratified. in fact in the making of halo 4 MM video one of the designers actually says with our new scoring system no one finishes with a zero thus proving my point. This was then later confirmed as FACT at the GDC halo post moderm discussion by josh holmes who confirmed that halo 4 was designed to make halo 4 more accessible and to reduce the skill gap. But halo is meant to be an arena shooter, its meant to challenging, and the fact it was dumbed down offended a lot of people.

Now im going to resist my urge to explain why this was wrong because the 73% decline in daily peak population does that for me, clearly they should have focused on the older generation which they are now starting to.

Under the direction of Bravo and Quinn halo 4 has begun appeasing to the older generation of halo players i.e started on 1,2 or 3 by first of all balancing the weapons so the dmr is no longer a god gun, introducing pro playlists where there are no armour abilities or custom loadouts (Can I get a AMEN) which re introduced the skill gap and actually got people to use Mics again as there is no radar thus creating a much more positive and natural experience for the older generation. they have also started introducing much more smaller and more competitive community maps into match making such as simplex.

The problem is the game it dint start with these features so now that the game in my opinion and by in large any competitive person opinion has gotten better people wont get to play it as they have traded it in or sold it months ago, so the numbers wont really increase online. Another reason the population wont rise is because the new generation and im sure you have seem them on these forums are now very upset with the game as the dmr is no longer able to compete, they cant use their precious AA’s and loadouts in matchmaking thanks to pro, and are saying without a hint of irony that now the game is ruined.

This did make me laugh the first couple of times I saw it but then I realized kids that started with reach or just played at the end of halo 3 have different exspections of what should be in halo in comparison to the older generation.

Which means if halo 5 is to be successful one of the most important things 343 needs to implement (well now that dedicated servers are guaranteed anyway) must implement two completely different playlists just like halo 3 but instead of calling it social and ranked it should be called infinity and classic, with the classic being ranked as mlg or agl or egl uses a more traditional halo experience i.e no armour abilities or loadouts, that way every1 wins and the population wont be so abysmal.

If you agree please leave a thank and if you don’t please explain why

2

I think you have a based argument, but you are looking at it only one way. Yes, there is a decline in skill requirement. But that also means that more people can have a fun time playing a game without “try harding”, so to speak. A int you made, which was no players end a game with zero points…what’s really wrong with that? This new system is meant to encourage and reward team work and communication, both of which are essential tools in both digital and physical life. I’m just speaking from personal experience, but it seams like 343i is trying to make it much less stressed experience.

As for the custom classes and ordinance, what’s wrong with customization? For instance, in Halo 3, if a player doesn’t like the AR or BR, then you just say screw you, deal with it. But now, they can use whatever weapon complements their individual play style.

I understand your point at the “Halo at its roots”, and the “Golden Triangle”. That’s a valid point, but evolution happens. Sometimes you have to move on from what’s old and traditional, and try something new. I’m even willing to bet that Destiny will have personal class creation and editing. You point is definitely a valid one, but how many 14 year old kids can logically complete with an adult who has had a decade of experience with Halo? In this new system, most of the gameplay is generally more balanced and open to new players, without making “noobs” feel left out and/or rejects because they weren’t born earlier.

3

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> <mark>“As for the custom classes and ordinance, what’s wrong with customization? For instance, in Halo 3, if a player doesn’t like the AR or BR, then you just say screw you, deal with it. But now, they can use whatever weapon complements their individual play style”.</mark>
>
> The problem with the customization is that people no longer start on a level playing field, which gives an unfair advantage to the a more experienced team off the bat.
>
> Next giving people the option to start with certain weapons or amour abilities has ruined gameplay for instance:
>
> In halo 3 Valhalla was a massive success because there was only two long range weapons placed on the map the snipers and a limited supply of mid to short range weapons brs so people could move around the map, but now in halo 4 ragnorock is a camp fest why, the dmr has the ability to cross map people with ease it has to be a pick up weapon for this to stopped, this problem is further worsened by the fact people can select to have active camo as an armour ability so people just sit on top of that mountain all day picking off anyone that dare attempt to move across the map. This problem occurs on every single big team map now except for possibly vortex and exile as there are no great vantage points on that map but on settler, ragnorock, harvest and longbow there is virtually no movement at all
>
> This is even without mentioning the problems that have risen from people been able to spawn with plasmas nades, and pistols, the bolt shot and other features
>
> to sum up custom loadouts in halo 4 although a good idea was implemented poorly, it should be restricted a lot more than it is, for instance the dmr and the light rifle should not be options as they have a far greater range thus should be pick up weapons, secondary weapons and grenades should be fixed to the unsc pistol and frags, as well as most of the aa’s removed apart from the non game breaking ones such as thruster pack or the shield, and the tactical and support upgrades should be dropped entirely[/spoiler]

4

You perfectly describe what happened. That is really what happened, and now that you have cleared that up for everyone, and with more enlightened minds, we should finally be able to start coming up with a decent solution to this divide in the population.

you suggest a strict division between casual/new and competitive/classic. This would in theory in fact be the ultimate solution. Everyone gets what they want, right?

However, in reality, i think this will cause an even greater divide in the community. Players playing in the ‘innovative’ playlists will have a really hard time transitioning from new to classic if they get better at the game and discover their competitive self. Competitive players at heart will quickly abandon the ‘innovative’ playlists because of the randomness. There are also, believe it or not, players that are in between really competitive and casual, and i believe the majority of the population is under this category. Players that want to play competitively, but can’t compete with the really skilled people. And these players that are in between will have no playlist that really suits them best. Unless you add some in between playlists, but that would really divide the population over many, many playlists, which would result in the same effect as we have today: low population per playlist, which is bad for correct matchmaking.

The ideal solution is also the hardest. It would be to unify the community, competitive and casual alike. An example of this is Team Fortress 2, a game that can be really competitive, but is still played as a casual game by most. We’re talking about a game by the makers of the super-competitive Counter Strike here. TF2’s population is huge because of this formula. There are no variations in settings, they are equal in all gametypes. However, TF2 is a class-based shooter, not a direction that Halo 5 should go towards, so that may be a poor example.

What we should learn from this is that Halo 5 too should have uniform settings from the start that are competitive at their core.
Right now is a division between infinity settings and competitive settings. Some violations to the golden rules a competitive game should have in infinity settings are:

  • You cannot predict which armor ability and loadout your opponent has so you can’t plan your actions accordingly (Every TF2 class is easily recognised and can only use class specific weapons and ability)
  • Clear advantages over your enemy are obtained without the enemy having a chance to prevent this (power weapons in ordnance) (there are no power weapons in TF2)
  • There are still some poor mechanics such as Flinch that are random and only serve to reduce the skillgap or were just poorly implemented. (a poor 100% speed strafe, for example). 1v1’s are not what they used to be. Sprint also falls under this category, even though the effects aren’t as drastic as they were in Reach.
  • Mechanics that severely limit player freedom such as no flag dropping
  • …

If these issues are fixed for the casual playlists in a creative way, there is a good chance that all of H5’s settings can be unified into a single gametype. Those now considered ‘competitive gametypes’ would for H5 become the casual gametypes. The competitive gametypes would then probably disable motion tracker and sprint, perhaps a different map selection (remakes :D) and hopefully, nothing more would need to be changed.

THAT, would be the perfect Halo. I know my post lacks specific suggestions, but that’s up to the designer to innovate. But they mustn’t break the rules mentioned above.

5

>

I just want to say that I have more stress in H4 than in classic Halo games, because it is impossible to predict what your enemy is going to use against you in combat. Not knowing what is to come and therefore worrying is the definition of stress.

6

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Daitor

I agree with you completely the community cannot have three distinct playlist as that will further segment the population but i could not think of how the middle ground would function because if you take away from the new halo aka infinity there will be up roar from the new generation.

And I agree with you the random elements and features such as sprint should be removed but cannot see 343 dis regarding those features entirely can you? that’s the reason I went for the extreme cases i.e classic and infinity

do you want to explain in more detail how your middle ground would function?

7

Let me preface by saying I’m 40 to define my generation. I’ve been gaming all my life and, though my mind may still be competitive, I’ve got kids, a mortgage, slower reflexes. I’m decidedly casual and, truth be told, I adapted to “new” halo just fine and grew to like it quite well. I’m working my way though the TU and still trying to enjoy it like I did, but I’m frankly not as pleased with it as those that want to put on their tryhard pants and hone their skills each match. I get to play a limited amount and being able to play the casual version, aka infinity slayer, was spot on.

I can’t disagree with a lot of the points raised in this thread; however, I argue two points 1)evolution and development is necessary and important to keep moving AA title games forward. Would you play the hell out of Halo if it were just continually Halo 3 repackaged with better graphics and different maps? 2) there can and should be playlists that suit the two divergent groups of hardcore and casual. I don’t play throwdown, but from its description, does it not fit the bill for skilled players to duke it out? If it does, then why complain about (or much better yet) play infinity slayer? I’d personally prefer pro settings NOT to be in infinity slayer.

As for low population sizes, it happens. 343 had so many play lists in the latter stages of REACH that it was a challenge to keep things straight on what weapons did, what maps would be in rotation, etc. Yet people that were if nothing else hardcore fans of Halo kept showing up and playing. Arguably, if a hardcore/casual split were created in Halo 4 playlists, there would still be people playing. You’d get matches that were likely better as well. I’m sick of matching my paltry CSR 17 against 35 and up.

8

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Callsign Mike

I agree with your second point there should be some middle ground I just cannot think how that would look as in what features should stay, leave, and so on so I didn’t include it but yes your right although I wouldn’t create an entirely new playlist for it, I would look to weave it to the social or infinity playlists to give people the option to play it and give their opinions if they enjoy it they can move onto the classic competitive playlist, that way in theory everyone should get what they want but iv no idea how this would be done or look like but if have a suggestion or opinion please feel free to explain

I do however dis agree with your first point, on the basis that yes a game should evolve but not to the extent where fundamental aspects and the core gameplay is completely altered which is what has happened to halo 4 for example in every previous edition of halo it was vital to hold power positions i.e where the power weapons would spawn which encouraged map movement, communication , and allowed for confrontations to take place in key areas, a well organized team pretty much knew what exactly what was going on in a game but as a consequence of ordinance there is now elements of randomness and luck in every game no team can accurately prepare for a game, confrontation as there is no way to tell what the opposition will be equipped with, on top of this wins can now be based on luck as someone could get a needler the other person a rocket launcher which really leaves a soar taste in my mouth and many others.

343 didn’t need to change as much as they did that’s the point as I can barely
recognise halo in this game

9

Agreed with the initial statement, a generation gap does explain it

People will hate me for this, but I reckon Reach was the best compromise between new and old, keeping a lot of the old standard loadouts, while giving a bit of freedom in choosing loadouts (specifically AA’s)
That’s why I reckon Reach was actually quite good in the end, just that little bit of freedom!

Halo 4 has too much, aka, you choose sticky grenades, throw them in someone’s face as you die and instant kill. Or PP a vehicle, throws tons of stickies at it… Or active camo with ammo, AA efficiency for the BTB campers…

Worse thing is they die, and they start off exactly the same.
In Reach, you wanted to kill a vehcile you had to either outsmart the driver or go and get stickies/PP to stop it, or even teamshoot it…

10

i honestly dont care what they do in MM as im a campaign player for the most part. as long as the campaign is good ill be happy.

however i do have an opinion on this as well. i believe that they do need to go forward in the game and evolve to stay relevant but they need how to figure a way to do so without going to the extreme like in halo 4’s case. id like to see them evolve but still stay more similar to old halo then new.

im sure they can figure out a way in halo 5 after this blew up the way it did.

i also would like to agree with this guy ^^^^^ Rknb117. reach may have been the middle ground, i just wish they had upped the speed and jumping…

11

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Rknb

I 100% agree with you reach loadouts were far superior in that regard as halo 4 gives far too many options and choices for people to exploit. The loadouts if they are to stay in for halo 5 need to be more restricted/set. no1 should be able to take out a vehicle single handily as easily as this game makes it, no one should have the ability to one shot kill someone either.

My solution would be to only be able to start with short to medium range weapons, Ars and Brs, etc frag grenades and the unsc pistol and if armour abilities must stay to only have non game breaking ones such as thruster pack, also id get rid of tactical and support packages

do you think this would work?

12

I get what you are saying about the core gameplay changes. It would seem then that one or more playlists should be built around this premise: static power weapon spawns, no personal ordinance, limited and/or balanced AA, limited and/or balanced personal loadouts. The other set of playlists could be the built on the existing infinity premise with all the bells and whistles 343 developed and implemented. Weapon tuning/balance is still necessary even in the casual infinity setting but yes, sometimes you’ll get beasted because someone got an incinerator cannon and you get to call in an underpowered gravity hammer. Anyway, seems like a way forward.

So the question I have is, if team throwdown isn’t cutting it for the more hardcore crowd, what needs to be changed or implemented to make it have that core gameplay aspect you mentioned?

13

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Throwdown is fine Ghost7amye works away on them and updates them but thats only 1 playlist there should be more options for the competitive players say they want to play big team or doubles for example

another reason is to go from infinity to throwdown is a massive jump at the minute for the competitive casual like myself, too many features change and the skill jump is really quite daunting as most of the pro halo 4 players practice for tournaments in that playlist so people just get destroyed (its not just pros who miss the classic balanced gameplay )there has to be a middle ground like the pro variant in infinity slayer should be a separate playlist so the jump isn’t as big

14

I’m 20. I played the first halo a year after it came out. Just to give a little back story on me. Anyway i would like to start off by saying i loved halo 4 out of the box. Almost everything they added felt like an evolution to something we had in the past. So i like a majority of halo 4. And i still believe at it’s core it still plays a lot like “classic halo.” Again just my opinion. I believe that many of halo 4’s new mechanics are good but not implamented properly. This combined with how 343 addressed the community in some ways and how they handled the game at the beginning is what really went wrong.

Here is a list of things that i dislike in halo 4: The new human sniper look, Being able to spawn with stickies PP and BS, How weak vehicles are, how dominion is basically IC slayer, the lack of diversity in gametypes for playlists, the handling of playlists in general, JIP, instant spawns, and POD as is. I won’t go into how i feel it should be tweaked or how i think some things should be handled because the post would be too long.

Lastly i agree with only one point you made. Supporting these new mechanics in their own group of playlists and doing the same for the older style of plays. Halo doesn’t have to be my play style is the correct one. So 343 should do a better job of supporting all playstyles in halo 5. Sadly i’m officially worried since they showed halo 5 trailer at E3. Good chance halo 5 will be out next year. And i want 343 to take as much time as possible to make halo 5 a better game.

15

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Razorstorm

That’s fine some my friends do enjoy those features as well this isn’t about how halo should be played its how to appease to the two very distinct play styles as you said

It also worries me that 343 have already shown a trailer for h5 as I think its fairly obvious to everyone halo 4 was rushed out to beat a competitor to the market, I just hope 343 release a finished, polished game that offers options for all of its fan base instead of just a specific group

16

Innovation doesn’t mean that Halo has to abandon its roots.

17

AAs are good they just need to drop AC and Prom (maybe replace em with AAs that are balanced I.E Thruster. And the rest i agree to an extent i feel there is a place in halo for custom loadouts they just need to stop with this insta kill spawn crap I.E sticks, BS the PP has a place if you cant spawn with sticks. I like being able to spawn with a CC as Unsc gear is so boring I hated H3 ( for the codeing bug that made it impossible to spawn a player with a CC H3 was a good game but it focused to much on the br)… theres a place for all of this…it just needs some more fine tuneing…except PO i’m sorry PO is the worst idea EVER in a halo game. (except if it just gave me ammo or…maybe refill my nades and i mean ammo for my selected primary) OH and I also feel there is no place for the LR or DMR in halo they lock maps…thats dumb. (least to spawn with them I would also like map weps of all kinds)

18

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Kit Kat i agree with everything you said about loadouts i would have loved to be a fly on a wall in 343 studios and to see why they think the dmr and LR don’t lock maps down or how camo isnt overpowered

Hopefully they realize their mistakes and take it out for halo 5

19

I would like the halo franchise to evolve, but anything added to future games in the franchise have to fit the franchise. I don’t want cod elements in the MP of a future halo game unless they don’t destroy the MP. The best way for 343i to cater to everyone is to provide playlist/gametpes that try to please everyone.

20

> Rknb
>
> I 100% agree with you reach loadouts were far superior in that regard as halo 4 gives far too many options and choices for people to exploit. The loadouts if they are to stay in for halo 5 need to be more restricted/set. no1 should be able to take out a vehicle single handily as easily as this game makes it, no one should have the ability to one shot kill someone either.
>
> My solution would be to only be able to start with short to medium range weapons, Ars and Brs, etc frag grenades and the unsc pistol and if armour abilities must stay to only have non game breaking ones such as thruster pack, also id get rid of tactical and support packages
>
> do you think this would work?

This would be awesome. The new and classic settings could coexist.

Here’s my idea of what these two could look like:

1. The New:

Personal Loadouts

  • Short-Mid range weapons
  • No 1sk weapons
  • Frags only
  • Tier 1 AA’s (Thruster Pack, Hardlight Shield, Hologram etc.)

Personal Ordnance

  • Semi-Power Weapons (DMR / LR / Dual SMG’s* etc.)
  • Ammo
  • Grenades
  • Tier 2 AA’s (Camo, JetPack, PV, Armour Lock etc.)

*Dual wieldable weapons could work with a twist (You can’t pick-up just 1) This would make them much easier to balance.

Power Weapons / Power-ups on map.

2. Classic:

Preset Loadouts w/ no AA’s
Power Weapons / Power-ups / AA’s on map.