A different perspective.

Alright, it seems that there are many misconceptions that some people may have, either about Competitive Players or the game itself. So if you see any of the following quotes, redirect the person to this thread in order for them to be more informed and to clear up some misconceptions. This thread is not about causing flamewars or hating on one another, it is simply a way to see things from the perspective of a concerned Halo player. Feel free to agree or disagree with any of this.

And please, try your best to read to the end. I realize after writing this I started it off a little opinionated, but it becomes much more open-minded as it goes on.

#1.

> Halo isn’t copying COD! Those aren’t originally from COD!!!

You’re right, Halo is copying Doom/Wolfenstein/“insert other shooter from the 90’s here”, because those games have giant populations that Halo can try to attract.

Oh wait, that was COD, the game that ORIGINALLY copied them. Why in the -Yoink- would Halo try to copy a game that next to no one plays anymore? This is -Yoink!- people. They are trying to gain as much sales as possible.

#2.

> Promethean Vision isn’t overpowered, it’s useless!

Then surely you wouldn’t have a problem with it being nerfed even more then, just in case? If it truly is “Useless” as you say, then nerfing it would only keep it at the same level it is now: “useless”.

Now here’s how most sane people can see Promethean Vision as Overpowered and not just an “enhanced Motion Tracker”:

> You can see across maps with PV, you can’t with the Motion Tracker.
> You can see crouching players with PV, you can’t with the Motion Tracker.
> You can see people’s weapons with PV, you can’t with the Motion Tracker.
> You can see people’s EXACT locations with PV, down to what floor they’re on, you can’t with the Motion Tracker.
> You can see people’s armor with PV, you can’t with the Motion Tracker.
> And most importantly, with PV, YOU STILL HAVE A -Yoinking!- MOTION TRACKER.

This does not just “eliminate camping” it also elimates the whole “Stealth” aspect of the game that has been there since 2001. And you shouldn’t have to waste your AA slot on Active Camo if you want to gain that aspect back.

Not to mention that a camper WITH Promethean Vision can be much more deadly, as they now know where everyone is at all times.

And yes it does have it’s “downsides”, but are they effective enough to keep everyone from using it?

The “Blinking” doesn’t show a user’s exact location, and as for the “Noise”, some people who have played the game have said that it is hard to pinpoint exact locations through sound. (Skip to 5:28)

#3.

> 343 is catering to the Casual AND Competitive communities.

Ok. Name one Competitive aspect that is being added to the game. I dare you.

The BR doesn’t count, and we still know nothing about the ranking system or the Classic playlist.

#4.

> The BR doesn’t need to be a 4sk.

Why not? If the kill times are Carbine 7sk: 1.38, DMR 5sk: 1.48, BR 5sk: 1.82, obviously something is wrong. This is a MAJOR issue to the balance of the game.

#5.

> It is realistic for Spartans to be able to Sprint, so Sprint needs to be in the game.

Oh yeah, I got so lost in the realism that is aliens, zombies, Giant ring-shaped superweapons, robots, and AI’s that I forgot that Spartans knew how to Sprint.

#6.

> 343 has learned from Bungie’s mistakes.

Have they really? To myself and many others, Reach failed in their eyes due to things like Armor Abilities, Loadouts, Sprint, and items aimed directly at the COD audience.

Now what does Halo 4 have? AA’s, Loadouts, Sprint, and items aimed at the COD audience, only this time, they are all enhanced.

#7.

> All competitive players want is Halo 2.5

This is just flat out wrong. While I think that a Halo 2.5 would appeal to myself more than Halo 4 would in it’s current state, Halo DOES need to change. Ask (nearly) every Competitive player and they will say the same thing.

However, there are differences between the changes we want. We want changes that do NOT affect balance or the Golden Triangle in any way. Obviously we differ from many of you in that regard.

#8.

> None of this is final.

Do you remember the Reach Beta? More specifically, do you remember the COMMUNITY around the time of the Reach Beta?

Everyone and their mother had complaints about the new so-called “invincibility” added to the series. But Bungie told us all to relax, it is just a beta.

Have you been to the Reach forum in the past year and a half? It is almost completely overtaken by Armor Lock complaints.

Sometimes its the ideas themselves that are broken, not the specifics coughPromethean Visioncough.

#9.

> It doesn’t need to change, let 343 do their job.

This is the attitude on this forum that I despise. These forums are SPECIFICALLY created for us to give our constructive criticisms for the overall betterment of the game.

If no one had spoken out when Reach was new we’d still have Armor Lock, Sprint would be an AA, and the BR would be long gone.

And yes, not everyone is going to agree with one another and some people are always going to be left out. But right now a whole section of the community is being forgotten in hopes of drawing in COD crowds and they are cying out, as they should. They want their voices to be heard just as much as you do.

Imagine if 343 announced for Halo 5 that they wanted to take a more “Competitive” approach. They then announced that vehicles, Forge, Spartan Ops, and most playlists were being canned to make more room for more small Symmetrical maps. All precision weapons would be replaced by the return of the 3sk Pistol and they were getting rid of most of the other guns and AA’s.

I’d imagine you wouldn’t be happy either, but this is what the Competitive players are going through right now and they don’t want to watch their favorite series become a game that no longer suits them.


I do however realize that myself and others who agree with me have just as many misconceptions as those who don’t. But I tried to do my part in clearing things up.

And in the making of this thread, I realize that I have doomed the replies to be an all-out flamewar but that wasn’t the purpose of this thread.

My only hope for this thread is that some people will look upon it with an open mind and see things from another perspective.

I stopped reading when I saw the words “casual and competitive” in the same sentence. The points are your opinion, but those words weren’t necessary and add no value to this forum, unless you count flame wars.

It is not your fault,but this has been discussed infinitely and has led nowhere.

> I stopped reading when I saw the words “casual and competitive” in the same sentence. The points are your opinion, but those words weren’t necessary and add no value to this forum, unless you count flame wars.
>
> It is not your fault,but this has been discussed infinitely and has led nowhere.

You obviously didn’t read far enough. This thread isn’t about causing flamewars or fighting about Casual vs. Competitive, it was simply meant to inform others how the average “Competitive” gamer sees these new changes and how they may be worried about them. It was simply a way to make people see things from a different perspective.

My first paragraph was written pretty badly though, I do admit. I should probably go back and change that…

> > I stopped reading when I saw the words “casual and competitive” in the same sentence. The points are your opinion, but those words weren’t necessary and add no value to this forum, unless you count flame wars.
> >
> > It is not your fault,but this has been discussed infinitely and has led nowhere.
>
> You obviously didn’t read far enough. This thread isn’t about causing flamewars or fighting about Casual vs. Competitive, it was simply meant to inform others how the average “Competitive” gamer sees these new changes and how they may be worried about them. It was simply a way to make people see things from a different perspective.
>
> My first paragraph was written pretty badly though, I do admit. I should probably go back and change that…

You know, I thanked you until I got past misconception 1, because misconception 1 was good, and right on the money, the other “misconceptions” clear things up, and also causes more misconceptions, I really don’t think you can see across the whole map with it. Misconception 3 is a little blind there, 343i isn’t just catering to casuals, they’re catering to EVERYONE, you don’t make money by catering to just one group like casuals or competitive players. It just seems like they’re catering to casuals because their more of them than you “hard core” competitive gamers. Also, you make think of you as an “average” competitive gamer, but that’s a term you label your self, I can say I’m a very average 23 year old, but no one is going to believe that I’m an average 23 year old.
Misconception 8, you do realize that there was A LOT OF THINGS that was changed in Reach’s Beta, like the amount of color options, some game types being changed, weapon spawns, and a number of things. It’s a BETA, things are changing, things don’t always change in the way we want them to change. Just because what we see right now is OP, or UP, doesn’t mean that’s how it’s going to be in the final release, it’s part of beta testing. Also Unlike Reach’s beta test, 343i is doing a private beta test that is focused on fixing things, which Reach’s was to test the servers and netcode.

Criticism does not mean telling them how to do their job. I don’t think you’d be happy if I spent a day at your job and told you you’re doing every thing wrong, and sat there and told you how to do your job.

#1) yes you have a solid grasp on the obvious reality…but I guess the question would be is every aspect of COD, like loadouts, perks, inherently uncompetitive and awful, or just the game as a whole (which definitely sux)?

#2) it’s very useful for sure, OP? maybe, but we haven’t seen the other possibly equally OP armor abilities. It’s possible some will be good enough to use instead. If so the question really becomes why do we have armor abilities again?

#3) other than pandering to MLG at E3? nothing yet, can’t prove it’ll be uncompetitive, but they really aren’t following any of the common competitive advice on the game are they?

#4) This. especially if the dmr keeps its 3x scope, 4sk battle rifle should be a little faster kill than dmr, maybe equal to carbine

#5) I would’ve preferred to “sprint” all the time with slightly faster base movement speed, but no designated sprint button…but if they make the maps a certain way this is the least of my concerns…

#6) lol. nuh uh, they’ve learned, really this time!!! :stuck_out_tongue:

#7), #8) more proof Halo has a cult like following

there’s always hope you Eeyore you gotta have faith !!!

Somehow you managed to spell “opinion” as “misconception”.

There are almost no concrete facts about the game known so far. Even those kill time numbers were unofficially pulled frame by frame from pre release footage. “Everything is subject to change.” This level of debate is nothing more than braying into the wind.

Its fun to watch though.

Everything you said I agree with. Things need to change or this game will crash as quick as Reach, if not quicker.

> You know, I thanked you until I got past misconception 1, because misconception 1 was good, and right on the money,

That’s odd, I figured that would be the one people would have the biggest problem with lol.

> the other “misconceptions” clear things up, and also causes more misconceptions, I really don’t think you can see across the whole map with it.

I don’t really understand what you are trying to say there. Can you elaborate?

> Misconception 3 is a little blind there, 343i isn’t just catering to casuals, they’re catering to EVERYONE, you don’t make money by catering to just one group like casuals or competitive players. It just seems like they’re catering to casuals because their more of them than you “hard core” competitive gamers.

I understand that the majority of people who will by the game will be “Casuals” but the majority of peole who stay and play it religiously are usually “Competitives” (unless something goes wrong, like with Reach), but I just don’t see how 343 has so far catered to both sides.

I sat and thought throughout writing this entire thread for one thing that has been announced so far that was specifically implemented for “Competitive” players and I honestly couldn’t come up with a single thing.

> Also, you make think of you as an “average” competitive gamer, but that’s a term you label your self, I can say I’m a very average 23 year old, but no one is going to believe that I’m an average 23 year old.

I realize this, there is no “average” anything, but I figure I am one of the closest things you’ll get. I’ve found throughout my time here on Waypoint that I have shared opinions with MANY people in the Competitive community.

I’m not trying to say I speak for an entire community, I just say what I know myself and many others in the Competitive community think.

> Misconception 8, you do realize that there was A LOT OF THINGS that was changed in Reach’s Beta, like the amount of color options, some game types being changed, weapon spawns, and a number of things. It’s a BETA, things are changing, things don’t always change in the way we want them to change. Just because what we see right now is OP, or UP, doesn’t mean that’s how it’s going to be in the final release, it’s part of beta testing. Also Unlike Reach’s beta test, 343i is doing a private beta test that is focused on fixing things, which Reach’s was to test the servers and netcode.

Yes, there were many things that were changed from the Beta, many of them were significant improvements (remember Invasion? All of the Spartans spawned with shotguns and camped the stairs.) but the one glaring problem that almost EVERYONE had was still broken when the game was released.

That’s because like I said, “Sometime’s it’s idea that’s broken, not the specifics.”

I fail to see how they can ship the game with an ability that lets you see through walls and eliminate stealth gameplay.

> Criticism does not mean telling them how to do their job. I don’t think you’d be happy if I spent a day at your job and told you you’re doing every thing wrong, and sat there and told you how to do your job.

No it doesn’t. But that is not what I am trying to do. I am asking 343 to try to see the recent turn of events from my/our perspective.

Reread the 4th paragraph in section 9. That is how we see things right now.

> Somehow you managed to spell “opinion” as “misconception”.

I kind of changed the purpose of this thread half-way through writing it and I didn;t know what to change it to. Any suggestions?

> There are almost no concrete facts about the game known so far. Even those kill time numbers were unofficially pulled frame by frame from pre release footage. “Everything is subject to change.” This level of debate is nothing more than braying into the wind.

There’s enough to know that when this game ships, there are going to be some things that are not balanced correctly. A whole half-second is a pretty big time to “Miscalculate”.

> Its fun to watch though.

The forums or the game?

I find myself cringing at both far too often.

> > the other “misconceptions” clear things up, and also causes more misconceptions, I really don’t think you can see across the whole map with it.
>
> I don’t really understand what you are trying to say there. Can you elaborate?

Every time I’ve seen PV being used, you could only see for a short time, and a very short distance, through one wall, you can only use it for 5 seconds, not even a very long time, I’ve used better versions of PV in other games that not only last longer, but also are more powerful than what you’ve been thinking.

> > Misconception 3 is a little blind there, 343i isn’t just catering to casuals, they’re catering to EVERYONE, you don’t make money by catering to just one group like casuals or competitive players. It just seems like they’re catering to casuals because their more of them than you “hard core” competitive gamers.
>
> I understand that the majority of people who will by the game will be “Casuals” but the majority of peole who stay and play it religiously are usually “Competitives” (unless something goes wrong, like with Reach), but I just don’t see how 343 has so far catered to both sides.
>
> I sat and thought throughout writing this entire thread for one thing that has been announced so far that was specifically implemented for “Competitive” players and I honestly couldn’t come up with a single thing.

Here’s a common misconception you seem to grip to “There are only two types of Halo gamers, Competitive gamers, and Causal gamers.” Yes, competitive gamers is a good way of describing people, but Causal gamers, not so much.

Also, what makes you think that the majority of religious Halo gamers are competitive? Personally, I don’t think every one is a full out competitive gamer, do you think I’m a hard core competitive gamer? Or do you think I’m a causal gamer who plays for a month, and then leaves?

As for what 343i has put in for competitive gamers, I honestly don’t really know, because I’ve seen competitive gamers want a ton of stuff, like the BR being back, a balanced game, an unbalanced, over powered BR, this and that, and not every competitive player always shares that same want. Granted right now all I can say is we haven’t seen every single feature Halo 4 has.

> I fail to see how they can ship the game with an ability that lets you see through walls and eliminate stealth gameplay.

I bet you’ve heard of a few games that as a version of PV, Batman, Deus EX HR, Ghost Recon Future Soldier, Syndicate, and I think the latest AvP game. Those are games I’ve played, that have features very similar to PV, some even more powerful than PV, some of them give you more information of what your target is holding than PV. Let’s take Ghost Recon’s X-Ray Vision, You can see the weapon, not just the outline of the character holding the weapon. You can see farther than PV can see. Also, most cases you can shoot through walls, can you do that in Halo? NO. Halo’s game play isn’t geared around Stealth, if we was talking a game like Ghost Recon, maybe, but not Halo.

Also, I keep hearing that there are one or two AAs that will trick PV, so it’s not that over powered like every one makes it out to be, hell, it only lasts 5 seconds. I don’t even think I’d even use it my self because I don’t see it as that useful to me, too me radar does the same damn thing, not as well, but enough to keep my on my toes, and I don’t generally play on small closed maps like that, I like to play on larger maps with open areas, where PV is generally useless. But you, as a competitive gamer, you’ll most likely either use it as a shotgun check when you see a red dot around the corner on your radar. Also, people can still die when using it, so doesn’t matter if you or the other person sees you with PV, one of you is going to die, and the other one is going to get the kill.