a dfferent opinion

i have a different opinion to most of you and i hope that if brings great disscusion and not a lot a trolling.

i think that most aspects of the reach multiplayer game matrix is very skill based. it may be different that the other halo titles but i feel that there are alot of aspects to the game and its mechanics that are skill based. I am 38 years old and have played halo since 2001 and halo ce. we played alot of halo multiplayer on LAN parties. it was very fun. i thought that maps were a little smallish but it ruled! however…when one player would get the power weapons they would dominate. to me that was less skill and more the fact that a player may have arrived at the spot where the sniper, needler or launcher was first. that player would then rule that map (for a period of time). this was a little frustrating. a lower skilled player may get these weapons and dominate more skilled players. or the more skilled player got them and then ruled the map.

i did not play halo 2 that much due to many draws on my time during that period. however i played alot of halo 3. i felt that the lone power ups on the map combined with the power weapons really accentuated my above point. you would have one guy/girl grab the invisibility and the shotgun and go wild. or grab the sniper and dominate. this was very true on last resort and other maps.

it is not skill if you gather things that others do not have and dominate them such as invisibilty and other powerups. the AA allow an evening of the playing field. this is why some see a closing of the skill gap. i think that some think that the gap in player ability and player score that is created by people gathering these lone gems on the map is skill. it is not per say skill. it may be more skill but not necessarily.

i feel that Reach has not removed the skill gap but modified it. you can’t get a single weapon or ability and rule the map. you must be able to beat others that have the same options and chances to have the same power ups and power weapons that you can have. this takes skill.

do not get me wrong. i played against some amazing players in halo 3 and ce. they wiped the floor with me not only due to their ability to get power weapons but their skill. i was more frustrating that people could get one weapon, hide and kick my a##. that was frustrating. i think that reach as leveled this last aspect of the game.

also it takes skill to use bloom and deal with it. i am sorry but that is my opinion. it takes no skill to shoot a weapon that never moves after you fire it.

i hope that this post generates alot of disscussion.

thanks

john

Random occurrences totally detract from skill based games. Bloom in Reach makes shooting far too random, more so than any of the other Halo’s. Therefore, Reach takes the least skill. It’s as simple as that.

managing a random occurance takes skill. firing a weapon that does not “walk” or bloom after it is fired takes less skill. i do not know why that is hard to accept. you may be better at firing a weapon that has no bloom and make incredible shots, but making those same shots with a weapon with bloom takes more skill.

john

Somehow I don’t think hoping for a kill is ksill based. Hoping to win a game is different, but in a skill-based combat scenario, you either know that you will kill the other player or you know that you will die. It could come close, and at that point you’re just shooting for survival, but if you missed a shot or two with the CE Pistol or BR, you knew that, unless they miss two consecutive shots as well, that you were going to die.

I don’t know if I’m going to kill or be killed in a DMR on DMR, Mid-range engagement because its mostly dependant on luck and a bit dependant on keeping your reticule on the target (its not that hard to aim, now is it?).

ok. point taken. i think that it is frustrating that at medium range…which is the dmr’s designed range, that it is hard to make a kill. i will agree with that. last night i was playing and i found that i was not able to kill a guy on hemorrage even though i had him dead in my sights. he was in the middle of the map running from the lake side to the mountain side. i was on side of the map on a path. that was frustrating and bloom angered me on in that instance. the DMR if it was well planned out should have nailed him in several shots. but in another instance in the same game i had a guy on a ghost driving away from my position and i slowed my shooting down, managed the shot and killed him (with a head shot from behind) without destroying the ghost. that was very satisfying. i just think that some form of bloom is more realistic. in games such as battlefield bad company 2 i think that bloom is very well managed from weapon to weapon. truth be told i do drop the dmr for the needle rifle when i can.

i just think that there are a number of people ( and i am not saying that you or anyone posting to this thread is one of those people) that are upset that their “skill gap” has been narrowed soley based on the fact that they can’t grab the only power up or power weapon placed on the map and dominate others. i think that the AA have allowed a narrowing of this type of skill gap. it is this narrowing that i like. the implementation of the bloom (especially on the DMR) is frustrating i will definatley agree with that. but throwing the baby out with the bath water is stupid also. bloom on the DMR seems to be the only one that i notice is really broken. but i seem to find this more in multiplayer than in the firefight or campaign. i wield the DMR often and to devestating affect in firefight and campaign. maybe the balance between the modes of multiplayer is off. who knows.

i ment to say that Reach has different skill sets that players need to hone. they are not the same as halo 3 but that does not make it all bad. we all have to deal with the problems that Reach has. but i have enjoyed the MM game play more due to some leveling of the playing field (with respect to the power ups and the power weapon type formate of halo 3).

john

Let’s say Reach takes more skill than Halo 3, explain why almost everyone who have terrible stats in H3 have good stats in Reach.

> also it takes skill to use bloom and deal with it. i am sorry but that is my opinion. it takes no skill to shoot a weapon that never moves after you fire it.

Umm, what about spamming, bloom in Reach only allows spamming

Skill list:

  1. Eating pancakes
  2. Reach

> ok. point taken. i think that it is frustrating that at medium range…which is the dmr’s designed range, that it is hard to make a kill. i will agree with that. last night i was playing and i found that i was not able to kill a guy on hemorrage even though i had him dead in my sights. he was in the middle of the map running from the lake side to the mountain side. i was on side of the map on a path. that was frustrating and bloom angered me on in that instance. the DMR if it was well planned out should have nailed him in several shots. but in another instance in the same game i had a guy on a ghost driving away from my position and i slowed my shooting down, managed the shot and killed him (with a head shot from behind) without destroying the ghost. that was very satisfying. i just think that some form of bloom is more realistic. in games such as battlefield bad company 2 i think that bloom is very well managed from weapon to weapon. truth be told i do drop the dmr for the needle rifle when i can.
>
> i just think that there are a number of people ( and i am not saying that you or anyone posting to this thread is one of those people) that are upset that their “skill gap” has been narrowed soley based on the fact that they can’t grab the only power up or power weapon placed on the map and dominate others. i think that the AA have allowed a narrowing of this type of skill gap. it is this narrowing that i like. the implementation of the bloom (especially on the DMR) is frustrating i will definatley agree with that. but throwing the baby out with the bath water is stupid also. bloom on the DMR seems to be the only one that i notice is really broken. but i seem to find this more in multiplayer than in the firefight or campaign. i wield the DMR often and to devestating affect in firefight and campaign. maybe the balance between the modes of multiplayer is off. who knows.
>
> i ment to say that Reach has different skill sets that players need to hone. they are not the same as halo 3 but that does not make it all bad. we all have to deal with the problems that Reach has. but i have enjoyed the MM game play more due to some leveling of the playing field (with respect to the power ups and the power weapon type formate of halo 3).
>
> john

Powerweapons in Halo 3 was balanced due to the places they were. You just had to know how to take out a guy with
a sniper shotgun etc.
The dmr in Reach is a fail. It exist to replace the BR. Nothing can replace the BR, it was perfect. Those who were good with it would pown those that didn’t have that advantage. But there still was an way to kill the mlg with the BR, there was always a way.

> Let’s say Reach takes more skill than Halo 3, explain why almost everyone who have terrible stats in H3 have good stats in Reach.
>
>
>
> > also it takes skill to use bloom and deal with it. i am sorry but that is my opinion. it takes no skill to shoot a weapon that never moves after you fire it.
>
>
> Umm, what about spamming, bloom in Reach only allows spamming
>
> Skill list:
> 1. Eating pancakes
> 2. Reach

Actually, a lot of the people who were bad at Halo 3 are just as bad (if not worse) in Halo Reach.

Ok then, so why is the arguement of

“The Pistol CAN 3-shot but it rarely does. It’s usually a 4 or 5 shot to kill” is valid for support for CE being a predictable game.

yet

“The DMR/Pistol WILL 5-shot when paced appropriately for range, yet if fired too quickly for a range, it will miss” is valid support for making Reach a random game.
?

Not only does the DMR/Pistol allow you to “luckily” kill your opponent like you once did in CE, it also lets you skillfully pace your shots for more precise and farther shots than the CE Pistol. And when I speak of skill, the ability to aim is not the only factor. No weapon or piece of armour is a good substitute for the power of situational awareness. Skill in gaming is having situational awareness first, the ability to capitalise on it second.

> > Let’s say Reach takes more skill than Halo 3, explain why almost everyone who have terrible stats in H3 have good stats in Reach.
> >
> >
> >
> > > also it takes skill to use bloom and deal with it. i am sorry but that is my opinion. it takes no skill to shoot a weapon that never moves after you fire it.
> >
> >
> > Umm, what about spamming, bloom in Reach only allows spamming
> >
> > Skill list:
> > 1. Eating pancakes
> > 2. Reach
>
> Actually, a lot of the people who were bad at Halo 3 are just as bad (if not worse) in Halo Reach.

Yeah, but try this, finde ONE person who is better in Halo 3 than Reach, and accually have played both games for a respectable ammount of time.

> > > Let’s say Reach takes more skill than Halo 3, explain why almost everyone who have terrible stats in H3 have good stats in Reach.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > also it takes skill to use bloom and deal with it. i am sorry but that is my opinion. it takes no skill to shoot a weapon that never moves after you fire it.
> > >
> > >
> > > Umm, what about spamming, bloom in Reach only allows spamming
> > >
> > > Skill list:
> > > 1. Eating pancakes
> > > 2. Reach
> >
> > Actually, a lot of the people who were bad at Halo 3 are just as bad (if not worse) in Halo Reach.
>
> Yeah, but try this, finde ONE person who is better in Halo 3 than Reach, and accually have played both games for a respectable ammount of time.

I’m not saying I disagree with you. I know the game was made easier to play, and I want that reversed. I’m just saying that bad players will be bad players, even from the transition from 3 to Reach.

being able to kill someone using the DMR requires some skill (simply keeping the reticule on them) and some luck. no matter how you put it, the fact that the bloom is random means there is no way of predicting it’s movement and it is therefore not skill that allows you to pull off the kill.

having said that, i understand the concept about the lack of recoil from the BR reducing the skill necessary to use it, maybe they should introduce some recoil then? but one that is consistent meaning that a skillful player will understand the recoil and still make amazing shots.

moving on to equipment, power weapons and powerups. again, i understand your point of a good player with power weapons is nigh unstoppable, however, the difference with halo 3 is that when playing team slayer (of a decent level) you communicate with your team. this means that in the beginning there is a fight for the powerups and when someone has a sniper/rocket launcher etc. you would take them down as a team.
even though this is possible, i still personally prefer a game without any of these as i feel it gives a fairer fight.

the main problem i have with reach is the loadouts. i severely dislike the fact that different people can choose to begin with different weapons/loadouts. its awful when your are mid fight and someone jetpacks away or locks down, its just unpredictable and removes skill as it introduces even more randomness into the game.
if everyone were to start with just spint it would make me far happier.

as you may have noticed i have a distinct problem with the random elements of the game, i enjoy beating someone who has exactly the same weapon as me and no silly equipment or loadout to help them evade confrontation.

> > > Let’s say Reach takes more skill than Halo 3, explain why almost everyone who have terrible stats in H3 have good stats in Reach.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > also it takes skill to use bloom and deal with it. i am sorry but that is my opinion. it takes no skill to shoot a weapon that never moves after you fire it.
> > >
> > >
> > > Umm, what about spamming, bloom in Reach only allows spamming
> > >
> > > Skill list:
> > > 1. Eating pancakes
> > > 2. Reach
> >
> > Actually, a lot of the people who were bad at Halo 3 are just as bad (if not worse) in Halo Reach.
>
> Yeah, but try this, finde ONE person who is better in Halo 3 than Reach, and accually have played both games for a respectable ammount of time.

surely the fact that there is less skill to reach means that it is far harder for a person of skill to stand out? is that not the aim of the randomness and the ridiculous loadouts?

in a game that is mainly skill without much random influences (ie halo 3) a person of skill will stand out a mile as they will destroy those who are even slightly worse as there is no randomness in shooting (i am of course refering to BR battles) however when you then play reach, that same skilled player will not 4 shot every time due to the introduction of this random bloom, its means some of their shots will miss whilst the worse player will be given some lucky hits.

> he fact that the bloom is random means there is no way of predicting it’s movement and it is therefore not skill that allows you to pull off the kill.

Outright lie. Bullets fired from the DMR land inside its reticle. Every time. You see it expand and contract as you fire it. Your claim that a player cannot predict the shot is false.

That in CE, 2 players at mid-range would engage, and though both can kill in 3-shots, and therefore who shoots first should kill first, the actual outcome, as claimed by those that support the CE Pistol, as random. The Pistol COULD kill in 3-shots but apparently it will usually kill in 4-6shots at most ranges “pros” play at. Meaning, the person who shot first doesn’t get a 100% kill. Both players have to use movement and map placement to avoid being shot while shooting the other enemy.

Reach and CE are very, very much alike. The difference being, pacing shots results in better shots. Using cover and moving helps prevent being shot. Spamming shots results in old-style Halo play of random outcomes. Pacing shots according to range is rewarded with precision. Using cover and movement while pacing one’s shots results the ultimate Trifecta of an FPS.

Using movement, the map and the sandbox to win. hoo-RA!

> > he fact that the bloom is random means there is no way of predicting it’s movement and it is therefore not skill that allows you to pull off the kill.
>
> Outright lie. Bullets fired from the DMR land inside its reticle. Every time. You see it expand and contract as you fire it. Your claim that a player cannot predict the shot is false.

ok, maybe i was slightly over enthusiastic, what i mean is that WITHIN the reticule it is random and over larger distances it can make a considerable difference.

> > > he fact that the bloom is random means there is no way of predicting it’s movement and it is therefore not skill that allows you to pull off the kill.
> >
> > Outright lie. Bullets fired from the DMR land inside its reticle. Every time. You see it expand and contract as you fire it. Your claim that a player cannot predict the shot is false.
>
> ok, maybe i was slightly over enthusiastic, what i mean is that WITHIN the reticule it is random and over larger distances it can make a considerable difference.

I know what you mean, I hated the Carbine and BR for longer mid-ranged distance shooting. At least with the BR, the first shot was true. Every time. That means with the BR, 12 accurate shots at max range will net a kill. But then you have to reload. The DMR kills much quicker in 5 shots and has 10 more in reserve.

So yes the BR has a more predictable first shot on each burst, but the DMR when paced is nearly 100% accurate on every shot.
If you spam the DMR, you get a shot that resembles the following 2 shots of the BR from its first. Meaning, the farther the target, the less likely you are to hit.

> i have a different opinion to most of you and i hope that if brings great disscusion and not a lot a trolling.
>
> i think that most aspects of the reach multiplayer game matrix is very skill based. it may be different that the other halo titles but i feel that there are alot of aspects to the game and its mechanics that are skill based. I am 38 years old and have played halo since 2001 and halo ce. we played alot of halo multiplayer on LAN parties. it was very fun. i thought that maps were a little smallish but it ruled! however…when one player would get the power weapons they would dominate. to me that was less skill and more the fact that a player may have arrived at the spot where the sniper, needler or launcher was first. that player would then rule that map (for a period of time). this was a little frustrating. a lower skilled player may get these weapons and dominate more skilled players. or the more skilled player got them and then ruled the map.
>
> i did not play halo 2 that much due to many draws on my time during that period. however i played alot of halo 3. i felt that the lone power ups on the map combined with the power weapons really accentuated my above point. you would have one guy/girl grab the invisibility and the shotgun and go wild. or grab the sniper and dominate. this was very true on last resort and other maps.
>
> it is not skill if you gather things that others do not have and dominate them such as invisibilty and other powerups. the AA allow an evening of the playing field. this is why some see a closing of the skill gap. i think that some think that the gap in player ability and player score that is created by people gathering these lone gems on the map is skill. it is not per say skill. it may be more skill but not necessarily.
>
> i feel that Reach has not removed the skill gap but modified it. you can’t get a single weapon or ability and rule the map. you must be able to beat others that have the same options and chances to have the same power ups and power weapons that you can have. this takes skill.
>
> do not get me wrong. i played against some amazing players in halo 3 and ce. they wiped the floor with me not only due to their ability to get power weapons but their skill. i was more frustrating that people could get one weapon, hide and kick my a##. that was frustrating. i think that reach as leveled this last aspect of the game.
>
>
> also it takes skill to use bloom and deal with it. i am sorry but that is my opinion. it takes no skill to shoot a weapon that never moves after you fire it.
>
> i hope that this post generates alot of disscussion.
>
> thanks
>
> john

Easy;

Reach: Two players. One less skilled, one more skilled. Lesser skilled player spams 5 shots. One more skilled player attempts to semi-spam/semi-pace 5 shots. Lesser skilled player manages to get 5 shots to hit, based on luck alone because this would not happen all the time. Now, what if that fight were to happen for the game winning kill? The game is overthrown, based on luck alone.

  1. In true skill based games, Quake Live/SC2/CE, the more skilled/ more practiced player ALWAYS wins. The difference is, the BETTER player is MORE PRACTICED and HAS better gun skill.

  2. If you and me were to play against each other, I will NOT simply just let you get to a power weapon. Obviously I will do what I can in my power to kill you and get the power weapon myself. If #1 above applies to the game, I will simply kill you if I am more skilled. Thus I am granted a power weapon. The difference is, a BETTER player is BETTER at timing the power weapons, anticipating the opponent going for them, and the gunskill to FIGHT for these power weapons.

  3. If I get a power weapon, I am given an advantage. This was ALWAYS a core aspect in Halo, getting power weapons grants you advantages. It takes skill to get those advantages if rule #1 applies.

  4. Say you get the sniper and you’re lesser skilled than me as a player. Obviously I’ll straight up rush you in close range. If rule #1 applies, in CE I would decimate you with the pistol with 3sk-5sk. It’s like chess, you have a snipe, I try to go close range. You have shotgun/rockets, I try to go long range. You have OS, I try to put shots on you and run away, to put shots on you after my shields recharge slowly bringing down your OS. The difference is, a more skilled player IS BETTER at using these advantages at their optimal use and VICE VERSA.

However in Reach, #1 doesn’t apply. So everything else falls flat.
In reach, we could both go for rockets, I could spam a 5 shot at you and get lucky. Then I am granted rockets, which based on my skills, I did not deserve.

In CE, we could both go for rockets. There is no spamming. Just straight up accuracy and consistency. If your shot is better than mine, it is better than mine, there is NO fighting it and I WILL lose that firefight and you WILL get rockets and you WILL deserve those rockets and it’s advantages.

Say you happen to pick up rockets from a dead teammate, and I am MORE SKILLED than you, I will stick long range and take you out with the pistol or snipe.
And that’s not all. CE’s map geometries, weapons like the plasma rifle actually having a use, short weapon respawn times etc etc etc all play a factor that make CE more and more like a chess game.

-nutshell
CE-Chess
H2-Checkers
H3-Dice roll
HR-flip a coin