A calm, civil discussion, relating to the topic AAs.

Games Other Halo
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…And more…Or less.

Hokay. Soh.
Obviously, the subject of Halo: Reach is a sensitive one. More specifically, AAs. (In the thread, at least.)

So, with all the talk of “Map control”, and “Spawning with game-breaking mechanics”, I’d thought I’d take a moment to think of the causes, and why it’s so infuriating. So, let’s take a look, shall we?

Jet Pack: This is known to break map control, and can really make some people cry a river in the middle of a match. For example, one could gain a height advantage over another, because they are jetpacking. Obviously, this means they can hit one with ease. However, there IS indeed a negative effect to the user. They’re out in the open, thus, easier to get team-shot.So, why exactly does no one comment about this? I’ve honestly never heard ONE comment about this effect. Another thing I want to point out is that, in MLG gametypes, you see Jetpacks as pickups. No one complains. Why? Some people say that it’s because you don’t actually SPAWN with it, and that it is similar to the Equipment from Halo 3, (which was a smooth, balanced system, IMO.) BUT, doesn’t that STILL break map control? You still have a GREAT vertical advantage, making access to vehicles, weapons, and High-Traffic areas easier, not to mention, you still have the higher-ground.

Again, going back to the subject of the “You can spawn with it” argument.
My question on this is: if EVERYONE can SPAWN with it, and you says it’s “OP”, or “annoying”, then why don’t YOU USE IT? It’s not like it’s restricted to the opposite team! If something gives someone the upper-hand in a fair fight, OF COURSE that someone is going to use it!

NOW: How does this all relate to Halo 4, you ask? That’s a terrible question, and you probably shouldn’t of asked it.

-HALO 4, AND ARMOUR ABILITIES-
So, my main point in this segment is, why does everyone hate sprint? Is it another “Game-breaking” situation? Honestly, I think it’s a long-over due mechanic, and, it works well. Again, I must bring up the subject of MLG. Everyone is fine with it in MLG, but why nothing else? I mean, seriously? if anything, people should be criticizing the COMPETITIVE playlist for not being COMPETITIVE enough, rather than complaining about how the CASUAL/SOCIAL playlist isn’t COMPETITIVE. See how that works?

Anyway, I’m getting slightly off track, here.
Going on with the “I think Sprint is fine.” thing, I would personally like to see equipment make a return, WITH SPRINT implemented. (For example, I could sprint to an area, pick up a bubble shield, and sprint to another location, and use it there.) Personally, I think this would turn out to be a great mix of both worlds. (Reach/Halo 3.) Imagine, sprinting away from a blood-thristy warthog driver, picking up a mine, and preventing your death in such an awesome way. This would open up new mechanics for custom games, creating even more possibilities!

Another thing I wish to talk about is something I like to call: “Dynamic Abilities.”. Basically, how these “DAs” work, is dependent on your environment, and cannot be used outside said environment. This idea came to me, mainly from the Halo 4 reveal trailer. Notice those thrusters MC has? In fiction, those are used exclusively for Zero-G movement.
This is where DAs come into play.

(I’m going to use the Reach MP map, Anchor 9, here, as an example.)
Imagine you are floating adrift in space, hoping to get the rocket launcher in the middle. You can envision it now: getting multi-kills, and putting the enemy team in their place… BUT, something terribly wrong has happened. Somehow, you managed to overshoot your target, you’re completely off-course! But, thanks to your DA, your Zero-G thrusters activate, instantly making Zero-G movement a thousand times easier, allowing you to redeem yourself! After you gain the rockets, you return to the interior of the Anchor, where your DA de-activates, and is permanently disabled, until you return to the Zero-G environment.

Wouldn’t the be pretty cool? Of course, if I put more thought into it, I could more examples of DAs, such as a swimming DA,(when underwater) or a gel-layer impact DA, (when falling from an air vehicle) just to give some (poorly developed) examples.
Anyway, I’m tired, and I might’ve just made myself look stupid (as a result of being tired), so, this thread has come to an end,(for now.) and I leave you with these questions:

Why is Jetpack “OP”, or “Game-breaking”?

Why is Jetpack okay in MLG playlists, when, for some reason, it’s unacceptable in other playlists?

Why does no one realize the negative effects of using the Jetpack?

Why Does Snape kill Dumbledore?

How would you feel about Default Sprint?

How would you feel about "Dynamic Abilities?

How would you feel about the return of equipment?

Please, reply with calm, civil answers. If you don’t agree with my opinion, (And I have a feeling most people won’t.) I would appreciate it if you didn’t state it in a rude or disrespectful manner.

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Personally I think equipment should come back, but some of it could have similar uses as some of the AA’s. Bubble Shield, jet pack, grav lift, camo, etc. I don’t think anyone would disagree that jet pack is a bad thing, especially since it can make for great custom games and I would hate to see it phased out completely. And in custom options you should be able to choose if someone spawns with a equipment and how long it should last.

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Why Jetpack breaks map control only if you spawn with it

When anyone can get a Jetpack at the start of the game, they can immediately use it to their advantage and get a good spot where they see a huge area of the map. They can go anywhere they want whenever they want. And when everyone can get this ability, there is no map control included anymore because no one is restricted to certain movement patterns by the map. A location that would otherwise have been easy to protect and hard to attack suddenly becomes hard to protect and easy to attack.
The fact that the jetpacker is out in the open doesn’t weight much. First of all, no one will look that high before they get shot. The jetpacker can easily go unnoticed. When the jetpacker starts shooting, they still have enough time to kill one opponent before the whole opposing team gets themselves organized.
So what difference having Jetpack as a pick up make? Well, as a pick up, it’s not a hindrance to the map control because it actually is part of it. If you want to get a Jetpack when it spawns, you need to keep the location under your teams control until it spawns. Then if we look at the maps, the Jetpack isn’t super useful on all of them. While having not played MLG for a while, I remember that Countdown and Sanctuary have Jetpack.
On Sanctuary you get little to no advantage out of Jetpack, only use for it is to get quickly on ring 3 at the start of the game. That’s about the use of jetpack on Sanctuary: quick access on ring 3.
Countdown on the other hand is pretty good map to have Jetpack. But being mostly a very closed map, you have no locations where you can see the map better than on other locations. The Jetpack mainly gives you the ability to move vertically on the map, giving better access to the top floors.
So that’s it, that’s why Jetpack doesn’t destroy map control when implemented wisely. I still do think that it’s unneeded even as a pick up. This is because I think the game becomes much more enjoyable when the players move by the map. This adds a little more weight on the strategy aprt of gameplay.

Now to other subjects. Sprint is kind of an unneeded ability. It damages gameplay by giving players too much CQC capabilities. Double beatdown being a prime example. IT also lets you run away from certain situations more easily and it makes escape movement too unpredictable.

Of course it could be tweaked to remove majority of these negative effects. But after all those tweaks it would be so useless that it could just be replaced with a higher default movement speed.

Not adding sprint also makes maps better because they don’t need to be stretched for sprinting. Having all players move at the same speed is just much better because on top of putting less pressure on the map design, it adds a layer of consistency to movement.

I don’t know about the dynamic abilities. It just makes me think that every player should have them. This in turn makes them just regular gameplay mechanics. to word it better: they seem kind of pointless to me.

Equipment was something I don’t ahve much against. At least when it comes to certain playlists. Equipment were fun in Social, especially in BTB. I have nothing against them coming back for some playlists, mostly Social.

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> Again, going back to the subject of the “You can spawn with it” argument.
> My question on this is: if EVERYONE can SPAWN with it, and you says it’s “OP”, or “annoying”, then why don’t YOU USE IT? It’s not like it’s restricted to the opposite team! If something gives someone the upper-hand in a fair fight, OF COURSE that someone is going to use it!

That is exactly what I did, and let me tell you, it allows me to get cheap, undeserving kills that I would have had to work much harder for if I did not have jetpack.

> Why is Jetpack “OP”, or “Game-breaking”?

Because there is no punishment for dying and the negatives of jetpack (being out in the open) do not balance out the postitves (instant height advantage, instant map control). Especially when the maps have spots like soft kill zones that you can sit there for 10 seconds raining fire down and everyone because you can see the whole map. I don’t know how extensively you played Halo 2, but there were these things called “super jumps” where you could glitch and jump the height of the spire. People used that to get on top of the map and kill everyone and everyone else hated it and thought it was cheap and unfair. In Reach they just give you that ability with the jetpack.

> Why is Jetpack okay in MLG playlists, when, for some reason, it’s unacceptable in other playlists?

Because, like you said, it is a pick up. That means both teams know exactly where and when it will spawn and they can fight over it. The team who wins the fight gets the reward of an AA that gives them an advantage over their opponents. Furthermore, when they die, that advantage goes away, so it is up to the players skill and intelligence to keep that advantage, not simply their ability to pick “Jetpack” on their death screen.

> Why does no one realize the negative effects of using the Jetpack?

Everyone realizes it. The negative effects simply don’t balance out the positives. Why do you think most players use jetpack in high level Arena? Because it is freaking OP.

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> SOSLICK22

Thanks for that.

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First of all, just because you put “a calm, civil discussion” in the title, doesn’t mean that it will remain one, in fact I’m betting by page 2 things will turn a little ugly.

OT: I’ve never liked the spawning with AAs and not because of over power issues or map breaking issues. I want AAs to be pick ups because I find it far more enjoyable that way. I always preferred the good old “everyone starts with the same weapons and equipment and picks everything else up on the go” approach not for reasons of balancing or competitiveness, but simply because I found it far more enjoyable.

My other problem with AAs is how they were handles. Jetpack should have functioned like a vehicle in my opinion. Active Camo should have been the one time use that didn’t diminish by moving faster that it had been since Halo CE. Sprint I’m more or less fine with, as long as it’s a permanent feature like in other shooters. The only AAs I don’t like and can’t really think of ways to improve them are Armor Lock and Hologram. They’re just boring in my opinion. AL also annoyed the hell out of me in campaign.

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there is no problem with AA in their current state. However, a jetpack should not be on your back when you spawn.

I picture AA as power weapon multipliers:
Evade by itself is pretty good, evade with a sword/shotty/hammer is x2 those weapons.
Sprint by itself is ok, sprint with a sword is lethal.
Camo by itself is annoying to radars but isnt that good, but with a sniper rifle on a big map, its unstoppable.
Jetpack is whatever, it usually gets you shot down, but with rockets?, you rain death from above.
Bubble shield is just a spawn kill breaker, these should be located in or around your teams base.
Armor lock is just an annoying thing, but when the other team has powerweapons, what better way to make someone waste a rocket or a shotty shell.
Hologram, well… This one I dont mind if you pick up, there would just be too many holograms if you could spawn with it.

if AA were pickups the game would be a lot more “fair” off the spawn.

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Sprint doesn’t feel like Halo to me. Without sprint, you are locked into firefights, too close to run away. You have to shoot the enemy or die. That was a hallmark of Halo gameplay for years. Now it’s run away.

Speeding up default movement speed would make sprint irrelevant, like it used to be. Bungie actually slowed Reach down so sprint would be useful–which makes zero sense. Halo was a faster paced game before, without sprint, ironically.

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> Sprint doesn’t feel like Halo to me. Without sprint, you are locked into firefights, too close to run away. You have to shoot the enemy or die. That was a hallmark of Halo gameplay for years. Now it’s run away.
>
> Speeding up default movement speed would make sprint irrelevant, like it used to be. Bungie actually slowed Reach down so sprint would be useful–which makes zero sense. Halo was a faster paced game before, without sprint, ironically.

I agree about sprint. It should stay out of Halo 4 or atleast out of matchmaking. I wouldnt mind armor abilities in custom games.
I dont really like the AA on spawn and unlimited use of it. It makes it kind of too important in the game and it doesnt fit halo.

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The problem with AAs, aside from AA specific problems, is that you spawn with them instead of them being placed around the map, and that you have infinite “ammo” for them.

Fix these two problems by making them map pickups with a limited (but multiple) number of uses and you fix some of the biggest problems with AAs. The other one is sadly unfixable in that you need to know what AA a player has just by looking at them. And it’s unfixable because the game is setup to not allow new items to be added to the exsisting maps.

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I don’t have a problem with the idea of AAs or equipment that you can use more than once(not even necessarily unlimited). However the implementation into the core experience was not very ‘Halo.’

If they are to return(maybe with single use equipment as well) they need to be pickups in the core experience. Invasion is one thing, but the core experience needs to see them as pickups that are limited and must be able to exchanged after death if they are not used up.

The series has to advance in some way whether it is with AAs or something new. The degree that blind nostalgia has taken over is pretty ridiculous.

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Your dynamic abilities sound cool, and they could work if implemented right. As far as AA’s themselves, they ruin several aspects of what has been expected from halo’s online multiplayer, something that should not happen when you innovate. Here’s the thing: while making them pick ups solves the spawning on the same foot and acquiring better things by moving around the map issue, some of the abilities are still somewhat unbalanced. If you balanced them, you’d just end up with equipment. All these people talking about how if AA’s were implemented correctly they could work don’t seem to acknowledge this. The fact of the matter is, equipment worked great with Halo’s multiplayer. Some were a little annoying, sure, but they worked. AA’s on the other hand break several aspects rather than improve upon them. If anything like them returns, it needs to be equipment.

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What if w/o loadouts and at any time, a player could select an AA like AC, evade, hologram, sprint, thrust w/the d-pad?

(NOT AL)

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sprint plain and simple practically very thing on earth was born to learn this action so why shouldnt a super soldier be able to do so the othe AAs arnt really needed.

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Why is Jetpack “OP”, or “Game-breaking”?
You spawn with it, and it breaks setup.

Why is Jetpack okay in MLG playlists, when, for some reason, it’s unacceptable in other playlists?
You dont spawn with it, making it like any other power weapon.

Why does no one realize the negative effects of using the Jetpack?
These effects only apply if the user sucks, when used correctly its extremely overpowered

Why Does Snape kill Dumbledore?
…

How would you feel about Default Sprint?
A speed boost would be more beneficial in every way

How would you feel about "Dynamic Abilities?

How would you feel about the return of equipment?
Would be alot better for customs

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For the simple fact that it breaks map control, i think jetpack is a problem. I find it ironic how people single out one AA (armor lock) instead of seeing how all of them are an issue.

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I don’t see any real problem with AA’s in general. Overshield and Camo were technically AA’s. I wouldn’t think that it would be outside the realm of possibilities that powered armored suits would do other things besides adding strength. It seems to me that the major problem with AA’s in Reach is having one on spawn as opposed to fighting over them on the battlefield. I kind of like it that way but, that’s just me.

I’m sure the problem of any AA breaking map control can be solved by better map design.

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In a civil way, I will give my opinion

Sprint should stay out of halo 4. I hate it because the game is not as fun with it. simeple as that for me. It’s not as fun to have sprint as to not.