A Better Way: Pre-TU and Post-TU Matchmaking Discussion

Since the ‘TU is not Reach’ thread has dissolved into a -Yoink!- contest over whether or not Reach can be considered a ‘real Halo game’ or not, I thought I’d make a thread to purely discuss the new January playlist update, and divine a possibly better way of going about things.

What this thread will not be, is an argument over what is or isn’t ‘better’, TU or Vanilla. It will also not be a place for you to compare Xbox Live usage charts to compare Reach to any other game to argue your point of view. Finally, it will most definitely not be a place for you to call Reach a non-Halo game. All of these posts will be reported to the moderators, whom I hope will appreciate the spirit of this thread.

This thread will be a place to discuss how best to please both sides of the TU/Vanilla argument so we can all get what we want concerning matchmaking. Though I am of preference to Vanilla Reach myself, I will attempt to remain as neutral as possible during the discussion.

THE PROBLEMS WITH THE JANUARY PLAYLIST UPDATE:

“please keep in mind these options—which are still being fine-tuned, altered, and generally played around with—will live in their own special area. You’ll be able to go into a specific hopper, check out the adjustments, and provide feedback on your experiences. And it is with that feedback that we’ll be able to provide the best possible experience over time. So repeat after me: conventional Reach gameplay will continue to exist alongside this new stuff.”

When the TU was announced by 343, this was the first thing they said about it. This put at ease the players of Reach who enjoyed the game as it already was, because they would not be forced to adopt an update they may not have enjoyed, while the option would always be there to play with the updated game types if they wished.

For a while after the title update, the playlist situation allowed for players to try out the TU settings, and opt for what they liked best. If you liked the TU settings, you could play games with them. If you preferred the vanilla Reach experience, you could revert to that as well.

This all changed in January, when a playlist update injected TU game types into vanilla playlists. Now, as far as I know (and feel free to correct me on this, I haven’t checked all the hoppers just yet) this leaves only custom games as the option for vanilla players.

The problem here is now obvious: Despite stating to the contrary that this would never happen, 343 has altered matchmaking to only allow post-TU game types and are neglecting the demographic of players that prefer a vanilla Reach experience.

THE SOLUTIONS:

This section will be edited to allow people in this thread to have their thoughts on the matter over time. It will field given solutions and criticism from both sides of the TU/Vanilla playlist, as long as they are coherent and consist of valid points.

First though, I’ll place my take on how to do it better than the course that has been taken:

Dauss: If the problem is that Reach matchmaking is entirely catering to one group of given players at a time, and that vanilla Reach players are being neglected for sake of a larger TU friendly audience, the solution should be pretty simple:

Allow a small category of hoppers, perhaps 2 or 3, to be purely vanilla based game types, while the main area of hoppers can be made completely post-TU game types.

These pre-TU hoppers, in their own category, could consist of Pre-TU Slayer, Pre-TU Objective, and possibly Pre-TU BTB, or something of the sort. A pre-TU sniper game type is probably not required, as the changes to a sniper game in the TU are probably negligible.

This solution allows vanilla players, of whom there are admittedly not many left, to play Reach as they’ve always enjoyed it, while allowing the larger TU positive community to play the game as they enjoy it in the Post-TU hoppers. Fragmentation of player population should be minimal, everyone gets what they want, and as far as I can see, there’s no reason for complaints anymore.


I turn it over to you now, forum goer. How would you tackle the problem of keeping the entire player base appeased in these turbulent times?

Youre neglecting two things. There can only be a maximum of 25 playlists at any one time and were near that limit, and i dont think 343 will strike vanilla from matchmaking completely but end up coralling existing vanilla players into a 2 or 3 vanilla playlist ghetto minus cool things like BTB (thus technically keeping their word even if its still shady what they did) Honestly i just think the whole thing has been mishandled, i still dont know how we could have gone so fast from the stroke of genius that was CEAs merged matchmaking and awesome anniversary map pack, to the current situation. Boggles my mind.

My ideal solution would be to roll back changes made thus far, sacrifice the bottom 5 or so vanilla playlists by population (rolling their gametypes into more popular playlists so they dont just totally dissapear) and create a new dedicated TU category on the select screen containing 5 brand NEW lists full of TU goodness with a broad mix of all gametypes (or better yet, create an official poll thread on the forum for TU people to choose their own destiny). Result is the game that people bought and paid for and have been playing for 18 months remains the mainstay yet there is a dedicated section for TU fans. After all when it comes to Reach, us Reach fans were here first. Anniversary remains untouched and MLG continues to get whatever they say they want.

This seems so logical to me that it never occurred to me that 343i would ever do anything else, let alone just say “screw it, TU in everything”. When they stated that they “may” roll out TU stuff further if it was popular i think most people took that to mean in NEW lists somewhere, not butchering existing ones, im still shocked that theyre doing this. The problem is the 25 playlist cap of which anniversary is now a 5 list permanent fixture leaving 20, which is why i would be willing to sacrifice 5 vanilla lists for the good of all.

Did you even bother to read the bulletin? There are still plenty of playlists(albeit only 4 of which are “normal” playlists) in which you can enjoy Vanilla Reach. You will not have to resort to custom games.

Excluding Anniversary playlists here are the list of non-TU and TU playlists:

> non-TU- 9 playlists
> Team Slayer
> Rumble Pit
> Living Dead
> Team SWAT
> Team Snipers
> Invasion
> Grifball
> Action Sack
> DLC Squad(new!)
>
> TU - 8 playlists
> Squad Slayer
> The Arena
> Team Objective
> Multi-Team
> Double Team
> Big Team Battle
> MLG
> TU ZB Slayer

> This all changed in January, when a playlist update injected TU game types into vanilla playlists. Now, as far as I know (and feel free to correct me on this, I haven’t checked all the hoppers just yet) this leaves only custom games as the option for vanilla players.
>
> The problem here is now obvious: Despite stating to the contrary that this would never happen, 343 has altered matchmaking to only allow post-TU game types and are neglecting the demographic of players that prefer a vanilla Reach experience.

First of all, 343 never said how many playlists of vanilla Reach they would keep, they simply said it would continue to exist.

Secondly, there is still Team Slayer, Rumble Pit, Action Sack, Infection, SWAT, Snipers, Grifball, Squad, and Invasion that don’t have the TU. There are still more vanilla Reach playlists than TU playlists.

Alright, thanks for correcting me on that. I missed the bulletin and haven’t had much of a chance to check out the other hoppers. That’s good for now.

Team Slayer…?

I like that solution. They should also rename TU gametypes to be shown as “Slayer” instead of TU Slayer". Then name Pre TU gametypes "vanilla slayer.

Also 343i needs to take bleedthrough out of the TU.

This post is made before the January Update. BTB, Doubles and Arena all have normal settings at the time this post is made.

Leave them as they are Playlists:
Rumble Pit
Team Slayer
Team Snipers
Doubles
Grifball
Action Sack
Score Attack
Firefight Doubles
The Arena
Big Team Battle

Changes that need to be made:
Eliminate ZB Slayer, it’s been in Beta for far too long; player count averages around 500 players. It is not worth keeping

Eliminate Co-Op Campaign, it is a waste of space and that room will be used for another playlist.

Eliminate Anniversary Squad and Anniversary FFA, player count averages below 1k; we also do not need FIVE separate Anniversary playlists.

Proceed with the Living Dead update.

Do not update Big Team Battle to TU Settings. The majority of the community is not in favor of it, you are being led by an active/loud minority; this is proven with playlist numbers alone and total population numbers.

Let MLG/Grifball determine the settings they wish. (Checkmark)

Throw in Premium Battle/Premium Slayer, use Anniversary maps as third slot. DLC People Satisfied.

Throw Installation 04 as default choice for Score Attack/Doubles and increase weighting in Arcade. Eliminate Anniversary Firefight.

Turn Squad Slayer into TU Battle playlist 5v5 Slayer/Objective (Mimicking H3 anyways, might as well do it 5v5). TU/H3 Fans Satisfied.

Add a Race playlist.

Add a Community Invasion Playlist to get new maps for Invasion, run it for a month and then integrate the new maps into Invasion Playlist.

Throw in a monthly Grab Bag/Beta Playlist.

Eliminate DMR starts from Team Objective and return it to Vanilla settings. Make it AR/Pistol starts the way it was intended, award higher jackpots to balance out low game complete and that should restore playercount. REMOVE 1 FLAG ON PINNACLE.

Return Multi-Team to Vanilla settings, Bleedthrough/Low Bloom does not suit this game style. Throw Rocket Race in it’s own gametype.

After the Community Invasion playlist is over, there is room for two playlists; feel free to throw in an 8v8 BTB if it goes well. You could make any of those two remaining playlists into any form of TU you want.

This way we have 2 Anniversary Playlists; One Mandatory TU Playlist with another two being optional, 1 Solo Firefight, 1 Doubles, 1 Arcade, 2 DLC Only Playlists, Overhauled Invasion maps, Objective Gametypes where people actually go for the objective, Multi Team that doesn’t have CoD like Killtimes, A Grab Bag/Beta Monthly playlist, a Race Playlist, and it essentially solves all problems.

I love this Hey Im New Here guy. Lets make Squad and Arena TU and keep the rest vanilla. All his suggestions seem spot on to me, although while we have room I’d really like to see an Elite-only playlist. If it underperforms, so be it, let it die, but I would play the heck out of that ish. The five Anniversary playlists are just way too much, especially considering how ridiculous ASquad is. I mean, why are there even Anniversary gametypes in it?? Isn’t there an ENTIRE PLAYLIST dedicated to that?!

> I love this Hey Im New Here guy. Lets make Squad and Arena TU and keep the rest vanilla. All his suggestions seem spot on to me, although while we have room I’d really like to see an Elite-only playlist. If it underperforms, so be it, let it die, but I would play the heck out of that ish. The five Anniversary playlists are just way too much, especially considering how ridiculous ASquad is. I mean, why are there even Anniversary gametypes in it?? Isn’t there an ENTIRE PLAYLIST dedicated to that?!

TU is not the same settings as the Anniversary gametypes.

> Eliminate ZB Slayer, it’s been in Beta for far too long; player count averages around 500 players. It is not worth keeping

You realize it’s still in the Beta category, which means they’re still testing it. The population for that playlist means nothing as they are testing the settings of ZB. If it was in the competitive category it would probably have more players.

Also, i’m not saying they should do this, but if Team Slayer was Zero Bloom I doubt you would see any significant population drop-off, just because the majority of the players in Halo Reach don’t know what bloom is so they wouldn’t notice a difference. The majority of my friends didn’t know about bloom before the TU and even now they still don’t entirely understand the concept, they just continue to spam with bloom.

> > I love this Hey Im New Here guy. Lets make Squad and Arena TU and keep the rest vanilla. All his suggestions seem spot on to me, although while we have room I’d really like to see an Elite-only playlist. If it underperforms, so be it, let it die, but I would play the heck out of that ish. The five Anniversary playlists are just way too much, especially considering how ridiculous ASquad is. I mean, why are there even Anniversary gametypes in it?? Isn’t there an ENTIRE PLAYLIST dedicated to that?!
>
> TU is not the same settings as the Anniversary gametypes.

…obviously…? I’m complaining that there is no playlist to play the Anniversary maps in that does not include the Anniversary gametype as a voting option. I would prefer ASquad replaced those gametypes with vanilla slayer, but I’m fine playing TU as long as its not Anniversary. I’m positive you would see the pop for that playlist increase considerably.

> …obviously…? I’m complaining that there is no playlist to play the Anniversary maps in that does not include the Anniversary gametype as a voting option. I would prefer ASquad replaced those gametypes with vanilla slayer, but I’m fine playing TU as long as its not Anniversary. I’m positive you would see the pop for that playlist increase considerably.

No Bloom on Beaver Creek w/o Sprint and other Armor Abilities is incredible. Easily the most fun I have had playing Halo Reach. I don’t like the Anniversary gametypes either, the pistol has too much aim-assist and bullet magnetism to be a three shot. But ZB plays very similar to Halo 2, which in my opinion was the best Halo (didn’t play CE other than campaign and a few 1v1’s).

> I like that solution. They should also rename TU gametypes to be shown as “Slayer” instead of TU Slayer". Then name Pre TU gametypes "vanilla slayer.
>
> <mark>Also 343i needs to take bleedthrough out of the TU.</mark>

Are you kidding? Bleedthrough was the best part of the TU.

Having a a playlist split into Vanilla and to TU would be impractical because of the playlist cap and splitting the population up too much.

The forums are a place for people to voice those opinions about the TU. This is where 343 gets their input on the topic and helps steer Reach matchmaking updates. However, there are people that do not use the forums and are unaware of how they can make a difference. 343 should at least promote the forums more so players can input their thoughts about the TU. There should also be polling in-game about changes so those that do play can voice opinions outside of the forums.

Personally, the TU makes Reach play better. Now that I’ve experienced it, Vanilla is just too painful for me to play, and players that I know are less skilled than I am are beating me.

I think pure Vanilla should just get three playlists: FFA, Squad w/ Objective, and BTB (However, there should be a TU BTB playlist with all the maps, outside of Anniv BTB.). Some playlists don’t need the TU, like Snipers and Grifball, but others do need it. On Tuesday, I’ll be able to experience Arena and Doubles once again. Now just waiting on Rumble Pit.

> This post is made before the January Update. BTB, Doubles and Arena all have normal settings at the time this post is made.
>
> Leave them as they are Playlists:
> Rumble Pit
> Team Slayer
> Team Snipers
> Doubles
> Grifball
> Action Sack
> Score Attack
> Firefight Doubles
> The Arena
> Big Team Battle
>
> Changes that need to be made:
> Eliminate ZB Slayer, it’s been in Beta for far too long; player count averages around 500 players. It is not worth keeping
>
> Eliminate Co-Op Campaign, it is a waste of space and that room will be used for another playlist.
>
> Eliminate Anniversary Squad and Anniversary FFA, player count averages below 1k; we also do not need FIVE separate Anniversary playlists.
>
> Proceed with the Living Dead update.
>
> Do not update Big Team Battle to TU Settings. The majority of the community is not in favor of it, you are being led by an active/loud minority; this is proven with playlist numbers alone and total population numbers.
>
> Let MLG/Grifball determine the settings they wish. (Checkmark)
>
> Throw in Premium Battle/Premium Slayer, use Anniversary maps as third slot. DLC People Satisfied.
>
> Throw Installation 04 as default choice for Score Attack/Doubles and increase weighting in Arcade. Eliminate Anniversary Firefight.
>
> Turn Squad Slayer into TU Battle playlist 5v5 Slayer/Objective (Mimicking H3 anyways, might as well do it 5v5). TU/H3 Fans Satisfied.
>
> Add a Race playlist.
>
> Add a Community Invasion Playlist to get new maps for Invasion, run it for a month and then integrate the new maps into Invasion Playlist.
>
> Throw in a monthly Grab Bag/Beta Playlist.
>
> Eliminate DMR starts from Team Objective and return it to Vanilla settings. Make it AR/Pistol starts the way it was intended, award higher jackpots to balance out low game complete and that should restore playercount. REMOVE 1 FLAG ON PINNACLE.
>
> Return Multi-Team to Vanilla settings, Bleedthrough/Low Bloom does not suit this game style. Throw Rocket Race in it’s own gametype.
>
> After the Community Invasion playlist is over, there is room for two playlists; feel free to throw in an 8v8 BTB if it goes well. You could make any of those two remaining playlists into any form of TU you want.
>
> This way we have 2 Anniversary Playlists; One Mandatory TU Playlist with another two being optional, 1 Solo Firefight, 1 Doubles, 1 Arcade, 2 DLC Only Playlists, Overhauled Invasion maps, Objective Gametypes where people actually go for the objective, Multi Team that doesn’t have CoD like Killtimes, A Grab Bag/Beta Monthly playlist, a Race Playlist, and it essentially solves all problems.

You realise don’t you that the anniversary playlists are there in case some people only have CEA and not REACH? What I want to see are Rumble Pit, Infection, Grifball played on some anniversary maps. If anni. maps could be edited to hold a grifball setup it would beat forge world maps by a long shot! I’m sick of looking at the same boring grey and blue maps. I want FFA anniversary, but not the way it is now, I just want rumble pit with maps like prisoner or damnation, all anniversary maps should be used with the normal reach playlists, for those who have reach we should have the option after downloading the maps to play FFA Prisoner from Rumble Pit.

Also you can’t get rid of coop campaign playlist, some people are only able to do coop campaign via that. And without that some people won’t be able to get certain commendations. Someone who wants Support Role, but none of his friends play campaign, he has to go to coop campaign playlist. You remove it, he’s -Yoink- outta luck.

The title update is absolutely horrible. 343 turned round and decided that making the Automatic weapons even more useless than before was a good thing and, as you said, they lied to us about how they would keep some vanilla playlists. I bet now they ban me for “flaimbaiting” because they can’t just accept that they made a mistake

> The title update is absolutely horrible. 343 turned round and decided that making the Automatic weapons even more useless than before was a good thing and, as you said, they lied to us about how they would keep some vanilla playlists. I bet now they ban me for “flaimbaiting” because they can’t just accept that they made a mistake

Nope.

> > The title update is absolutely horrible. 343 turned round and decided that making the Automatic weapons even more useless than before was a good thing and, as you said, they lied to us about how they would keep some vanilla playlists. I bet now they ban me for “flaimbaiting” because they can’t just accept that they made a mistake
>
> Nope.

Double nope. TU is great. I hope halo 4 will put an end to this horrible reach noobfest

I’ll be fine with the Title Update if they remove the horror that is bleed-through. Bleed-through is terrible, it’s the main reason I’m against the Title Update.