A better random ordnance system

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

Random ordnance in halo 4 has caused quite a controversy, and I get it, it can be frustrating.

Here is my idea for a more fair and fun random ordnance system.

The drop recon perk, as you probably know, allows players to see incoming ordnance drops before they hit the ground. I propose making this an inherent trait for all players. No perk necessary!

Everyone is now able to see an incoming random ordnance and everyone has a fair shot at securing it.

This takes the best of both worlds of static spawns and random spawns. Players still need to be perceptive and have fast reaction speeds like with random spawns, yet also need good positioning and teamwork as with static spawns.

Not potentially unfair as with random drops without seeing them coming, yet not boring and repetitive like static spawning!

What do you think?

2

i don’t get what you’re trying to propose.

  1. static spawns that produce random weapons

  2. personal ordnance that can be seen by everyone

  3. global ordnance that can be seen by everyone

or 4. something different

either way here’s the problem with ordnance

  • if it’s personal it’s unfair as it just snowballs, even a ammo refreshment on a utility would be, as it would require less movement and concentration to maintain control.

  • if it is on a static spawn but produces a random weapon then it all depends on whats given, could be a needler or a sniper etc, the game is deciding on how much power it wants to give and naturally causes imbalance

  • if it is a random or even a known weapon on a timer that spawns at a random location then the game is giving control to whoever is in the vicinity

  • if it’s a static weapon that spawns at random intervals then the game is deciding when control is appropriate

none of these are understandable or determinable outcomes due to its inherent randomness

randomness and unpredictability are not the same thing, they aren’t mutually exclusive either, both of their definitions under specific circumstances can mean the same thing however in this circumstance it isn’t.

according to determinism there is no such thing as randomness as it always has an algorithm which can be understood, this is not the case in halo, a person, even if given the code to determine the random factors of the game (PoD and spawning) would not be able to truly use this to their advantage, as a person would not be able to control the actions of the 7 other players let alone determine how to understand and manipulate the code for their own advantage.

things such as not knowing spawn times or knowing where or how people move and react to situations may seem random for someone who doesn’t know these things, however they are simply unpredictable to these people. the difference is that these factors are determinable once you start to understand how the game plays.

the most major form of randomness present in any game should be the randomness of human error, randomness created by the game is simply a tool to allow the game to play a neutral component in which it rewards and punishes players no matter what their input.

3

I don’t think that the perk being in built to all Spartans would bring halo back to it’s competitive glory because, while it does let everyone know where the next random ordnance drop is going to be, it still won’t encourage map control because the better team might be controlling a certain area when an incineration canon spawns just outside the other teams’ base, turning the tide of the battle in the losing team’s favour. I think, if ordnance drops are still going to be a thing, then make them set to a certain spot, no more randomness which will encourage competitive game play.

4

More fleshed out version here, knock yourself out.

This would only work if a system is implemented so that a weapon can’t drop within an already controlled zone.

Furthermore the maps would have to be designed so that areas would be strategically important to control, other than having a specific power weapon in them. More so than now. Another thing that would also make it more interesting is to place the random weapon spawns at difficult to control areas and risky to be in.

5

> Random ordnance in halo 4 has caused quite a controversy, and I get it, it can be frustrating.
>
> Here is my idea for a more fair and fun random ordnance system.
>
> The drop recon perk, as you probably know, allows players to see incoming ordnance drops before they hit the ground. I propose making this an inherent trait for all players. No perk necessary!
>
> Everyone is now able to see an incoming random ordnance and everyone has a fair shot at securing it.
>
> This takes the best of both worlds of static spawns and random spawns. Players still need to be perceptive and have fast reaction speeds like with random spawns, yet also need good positioning and teamwork as with static spawns.
>
> Not potentially unfair as with random drops without seeing them coming, yet not boring and repetitive like static spawning!
>
> What do you think?

I think that perks should be out of the game completely. Ordinance needs to be removed or balanced to the point where it only gives you primary/secondary ammo refills. Also weapon indicators need to be removed because HALO is supposed to be a challenging game not a game where everything spoon fed to you. Watch 10 seconds of the vid you see how their are no weapon indicators and how the inexperience player just goes by plasma launcher. A experience player (like me) would capitalize off the ignorance and shoot the kid down with plasma launcher and destroy the other teams vehicles easily. Halo is supposed to be a Arena shooter I thought, why have we strayed so far?

6

Sounds like a good idea for an Action Sack gametype. It’s just like Fiesta, but instead of player spawn weapons being random, the map spawn weapons are random. We could call the gametype Map Fiesta.

7

> Sounds like a good idea for an Action Sack gametype. It’s just like Fiesta, but instead of player spawn weapons being random, the map spawn weapons are random. We could call the gametype Map Fiesta.

Or we could have it as an alternative to on map power weapon spawns. As it is you have three ways of getting the good stuff (not counting ordnance, I’m only discussing “classic” Halo for the moment).

  1. Carefully time out power weapon drops and plot your movement accordingly (which let’s just say is a generally unreliable method.)
  2. Be in the right place at the right time. (ie. Luck out)
  3. Camp (which is the most reliable method.)

Thus you have a considerable random factor in 2 and a game breaking aspect in 3 (since by “holding the map” you can also hold the sandbox. It’s a system whereby only the rich get richer except where 2, or other chaotic events, happen to break the pattern.) You can however put a little less focus on 3 by empowering the second method. IE. drop in all on-map power weapons with an indicator perhaps 5 or 10 seconds in advance letting people know the map-breaking hyper cannon is going to be coming up soon (since its too important to let mere chance decide who gets it.)

Granted for anyone using the first technique this will remove their advantage, but so what? The game shouldn’t require a mental stopwatch just to work properly.

Ordnance then can simply be something else (such as a replacement for AA’s and equipment together. Say with every spawn you get 1-3 call in depending on your loadout, and those can be used to bring in grav lifts, mines, bubble shields, radar jammers, holo decoys, turrets, ammo dumps, and small search and destroy drones. Get a certain number of points and you get more call ins.)

8

> The game shouldn’t require a mental stopwatch just to work properly.

I do entirely agree with this statement, but nonetheless I don’t view timing spawns as “unreliable”.

However, having random global ordnance with markers above them before they land still leaves a ton of potential for someone to be in the right place at the right time.

> Also weapon indicators need to be removed because HALO is supposed to be a challenging game not a game where everything spoon fed to you

So you aren’t hardcore if you aren’t mentally timing spawns or using an app to do it, the latter of which is essentially the same exact thing as just having the game do it for you?

It’s a completely unnecessary part of the game that doesn’t add any depth, it just makes it unnecessarily complex. Removing that aspect of the game is moving forward, giving players basic information like the score, match clock, or weapon times isn’t “spoon feeding”.

Using that logic we don’t need a game clock or a visible score because you can use a real life timer for the game and you can write down the points you and everyone else scores and tally them up.

9

> > The game shouldn’t require a mental stopwatch just to work properly.
>
> I do entirely agree with this statement, but nonetheless I don’t view timing spawns as “unreliable”.

Unreliable in the sense that you’re hardly ever going to make a bee-line straight for the weapon drop and hope that at the moment you reach it the rocket/laser/sniper will spring up and into your waiting hands. You can certainly have a feel for when something might pop and try to hold that part of the map accordingly, but it’s not a precise method.

> However, having random global ordnance with markers above them before they land still leaves a ton of potential for someone to be in the right place at the right time.

Yes but in telegraphing the drop you allow more people to be in that place and at that time. Certainly someone on the other side of the map would be out of luck, still, but it’s a more inclusive setup which would bring some contest, and therefore gameplay, to a situation that is often devoid of such elements (either you don’t think and a weapon just happens, or you pull the weapon and score some cheap kills on those who weren’t quite expecting it to be there. IMO this idea is simply to create a little more awareness for the more important sandbox elements. There are other, larger issues surrounding them, but barring a discussion on those I think these spawn-in-timers would be an appropriate Band-Aid.)

10

> i don’t get what you’re trying to propose.
>
> 1. static spawns that produce random weapons
>
> 2. personal ordnance that can be seen by everyone
>
> 3. global ordnance that can be seen by everyone
>
> or 4. something different
>
> either way here’s the problem with ordnance
>
> - if it’s personal it’s unfair as it just snowballs, even a ammo refreshment on a utility would be, as it would require less movement and concentration to maintain control.
>
> - if it is on a static spawn but produces a random weapon then it all depends on whats given, could be a needler or a sniper etc, the game is deciding on how much power it wants to give and naturally causes imbalance
>
> - if it is a random or even a known weapon on a timer that spawns at a random location then the game is giving control to whoever is in the vicinity
>
> - if it’s a static weapon that spawns at random intervals then the game is deciding when control is appropriate
>
> none of these are understandable or determinable outcomes due to its inherent randomness
>
> randomness and unpredictability are not the same thing, they aren’t mutually exclusive either, both of their definitions under specific circumstances can mean the same thing however in this circumstance it isn’t.
>
> according to determinism there is no such thing as randomness as it always has an algorithm which can be understood, this is not the case in halo, a person, even if given the code to determine the random factors of the game (PoD and spawning) would not be able to truly use this to their advantage, as a person would not be able to control the actions of the 7 other players let alone determine how to understand and manipulate the code for their own advantage.
>
> things such as not knowing spawn times or knowing where or how people move and react to situations may seem random for someone who doesn’t know these things, however they are simply unpredictable to these people. the difference is that these factors are determinable once you start to understand how the game plays.
>
> the most major form of randomness present in any game should be the randomness of human error, randomness created by the game is simply a tool to allow the game to play a neutral component in which it rewards and punishes players no matter what their input.

#3 is what I am proposing.

It would be exactly the same as random ordnance as introduced in halo 4, only say 10 seconds prior to becoming available every player would be alerted, as if they had drop recon.

What do you think Celtic dragon? Don’t you agree with me that with global ordnance done this way, we would retain the edge-of-your-seat excitment of random ordnance, yet still give everyone a fair shot?

11

No ordnance system in any form whatsoever. Please and thank you.

12

> > i don’t get what you’re trying to propose.
> >
> > 1. static spawns that produce random weapons
> >
> > 2. personal ordnance that can be seen by everyone
> >
> > 3. global ordnance that can be seen by everyone
> >
> > or 4. something different
> >
> > either way here’s the problem with ordnance
> >
> > - if it’s personal it’s unfair as it just snowballs, even a ammo refreshment on a utility would be, as it would require less movement and concentration to maintain control.
> >
> > - if it is on a static spawn but produces a random weapon then it all depends on whats given, could be a needler or a sniper etc, the game is deciding on how much power it wants to give and naturally causes imbalance
> >
> > - if it is a random or even a known weapon on a timer that spawns at a random location then the game is giving control to whoever is in the vicinity
> >
> > - if it’s a static weapon that spawns at random intervals then the game is deciding when control is appropriate
> >
> > none of these are understandable or determinable outcomes due to its inherent randomness
> >
> > randomness and unpredictability are not the same thing, they aren’t mutually exclusive either, both of their definitions under specific circumstances can mean the same thing however in this circumstance it isn’t.
> >
> > according to determinism there is no such thing as randomness as it always has an algorithm which can be understood, this is not the case in halo, a person, even if given the code to determine the random factors of the game (PoD and spawning) would not be able to truly use this to their advantage, as a person would not be able to control the actions of the 7 other players let alone determine how to understand and manipulate the code for their own advantage.
> >
> > things such as not knowing spawn times or knowing where or how people move and react to situations may seem random for someone who doesn’t know these things, however they are simply unpredictable to these people. the difference is that these factors are determinable once you start to understand how the game plays.
> >
> > the most major form of randomness present in any game should be the randomness of human error, randomness created by the game is simply a tool to allow the game to play a neutral component in which it rewards and punishes players no matter what their input.
>
> #3 is what I am proposing.
>
> It would be exactly the same as random ordnance as introduced in halo 4, only say 10 seconds prior to becoming available every player would be alerted, as if they had drop recon.
>
> What do you think Celtic dragon? Don’t you agree with me that with global ordnance done this way, we would retain the edge-of-your-seat excitment of random ordnance, yet still give everyone a fair shot?

I understand, you like Halo 4’s style, we get it.

Problem 1: The ratio of people in your mindset is much lower to the rest of people looking for a middle ground/ back to basics approach.

Problem 2: This solves NOTHING. The reason that random map placement sucks is not entirely because no one knows when it will happen, it is also because it can come down in the winning teams position, which, as they are winning, we can assume the losing team is already trying to push that position, and probably failing, knowing when a ordinance is about to pop down will not change that, reversely, should a winning team know it’s about to come in before it does, and the losing team gets it on their side, they can then prepare the most likely route the foe will take to assault them with said weapon. Another problem with ordinance as a whole is to many power weapons on map. this isn’t even just due to PoDs, it also is due to the lack of max on map feature for ordinance drops, like previous Halo games, which would prevent 4 people running around with Swords on Countdown in Reach for example, except if there are host migrations, but this could be fixed with dedicated servers. They tried to counter this with VERY short despawn times, which generally doesn’t work, as the weapon usually is retrieved by the victor anyway, so it doesn’t despawn. and the short despawn annoys people anyway, as it pointless due to this and if the two players trade kills, you often cannot retrieve your weapon, as you could in previous Halo games.

Problem 3: Random Ordinance drops annoy many people as a concept. I do not mean to be rude, but do not take this the wrong way, but I am afraid you fail to see the larger picture in this case. What I mean by this is that, while perhaps you solve one issue, one that admittedly, you did solve, there are many others that cannot be solved, no matter how hard you may try. Such as map control problems or flow problems. the fact that ordinance can damage and KILL YOU on entrance is annoying, granted it is fixable. Sure, calling in your PoD on an enemy is funny, and I believe 343 missed a trick by not giving that a medal, but in the end, that could be seen as a cheap kill.

I in no way mean to stifle your creativity, but you need to understand, random ordinance cannot be fixed, like a great many other things about Halo 4, and they need to leave the game, for good.

13

> > The game shouldn’t require a mental stopwatch just to work properly.
>
> I do entirely agree with this statement, but nonetheless I don’t view timing spawns as “unreliable”.
>
> However, having random global ordnance with markers above them before they land still leaves a ton of potential for someone to be in the right place at the right time.
>
>
>
> > Also weapon indicators need to be removed because HALO is supposed to be a challenging game not a game where everything spoon fed to you
>
>
> <mark>So you aren’t hardcore if you aren’t mentally timing spawns or using an app to do it, the latter of which is essentially the same exact thing as just having the game do it for you?</mark>
>
> It’s a completely unnecessary part of the game that doesn’t add any depth, it just makes it unnecessarily complex. Removing that aspect of the game is moving forward, giving players basic information like the score, match clock, or weapon times isn’t “spoon feeding”.
>
> Using that logic we don’t need a game clock or a visible score because you can use a real life timer for the game and you can write down the points you and everyone else scores and tally them up.

There is a big difference in timing weapon spawns mentally and letting the game do it for you or a stop clock. When you are, you are multitasking, always putting in some effort into being aware of the clock (giving up awareness you could have spent on things happening around you instead). In a very hectic game, always keeping track of the time is actually a hard thing to do.

I am perfectly fine with a map showing off every weapon spawn before the game starts, but not with what we have in Halo 4.

14

Random ordinance drops aren’t even in most gametypes its mostly in infinity . Even then it was kinda limited.

15

> There is a big difference in timing weapon spawns mentally and letting the game do it for you or a stop clock. When you are, you are multitasking, always putting in some effort into being aware of the clock (giving up awareness you could have spent on things happening around you instead). In a very hectic game, always keeping track of the time is actually a hard thing to do.

I wish I still had that quote from someone over at Team Beyond. Essentially, more difficult is not the same as more competitive. ‘Halo isn’t competitive unless you are washing dishes while juggling chainsaws while answering phones while playing the game’.

It’s a -Yoinking!- game. More specifically, it’s a -Yoinking!- shooter. The only multitasking required should be you thinking about your actions while playing the game, not doing math calculations and trying to pull things out from your memory.

Or, as said earlier, should we remove the score limit and the clock and have someone keep track of those mentally or on a piece of paper as well? Halo is an FPS, it’s not Simon. And regardless if you leave markers out, people are still going to use apps and stopwatches, so there’s no reason to leave them out.

16

> > There is a big difference in timing weapon spawns mentally and letting the game do it for you or a stop clock. When you are, you are multitasking, always putting in some effort into being aware of the clock (giving up awareness you could have spent on things happening around you instead). In a very hectic game, always keeping track of the time is actually a hard thing to do.
>
> I wish I still had that quote from someone over at Team Beyond. Essentially, more difficult is not the same as more competitive. ‘Halo isn’t competitive unless you are washing dishes while juggling chainsaws while answering phones while playing the game’.
>
> It’s a -Yoinking!- game. More specifically, it’s a -Yoinking!- shooter. <mark>The only multitasking required should be you thinking about your actions while playing the game, not doing math calculations and trying to pull things out from your memory.</mark>
>
> Or, as said earlier, should we remove the score limit and the clock and have someone keep track of those mentally or on a piece of paper as well? Halo is an FPS, it’s not Simon. And regardless if you leave markers out, people are still going to use apps and stopwatches, so there’s no reason to leave them out.

Well guess what, what do you think competitive people or pros do when they pickup a power weapon? They keep a mental clock on when said power weapon is going to spawn again.

You’re right Halo isn’t competitive because clearly having MLG and that Halo 4 tournament is a clear sign that HALO is a casual game.

Where people are babied so much by having Perks, Ordinance, and Weapon Indicators. Its really quite sad that you fail to see that mentally having to know when a PW spawns is a challenging thing to do. Also are you -Yoinking!- kidding me that excuse to keep weapon indicators is completely unheard of. I’ve never heard of such as saying as ok guys let me get my stopwatch out or let me powerup my app. Also you do realize a regular stopwatch can’t hold multiple different time stamps? For example on Uncaged in Reach you have to keep track of shotty, snipe, rockets, and grenade launchers. While a stopwatch can only keep track of one of those times.

Also what made playing Halo taking skill to play is all about multitasking not being spoon fed spawns and when they spawn.

17

In regards to map markers, I feel this was the best comprimise:

they only appear when your within 5 feet or so of the weapon. this lets newbies find the locations a bit better. If map ordinance is to return, it needs to come under the effects of max on map, so we do not end up with 6 sniper rifles on Ragnarok scenarios again, also, if you go to the position that the ordinance will drop in, there it will show a timer of its next spawn, but only within that 5 feet range mentioned above. this method can be removed in competitive playlists, and I do not see it affecting social playlists dramaticallly. players get to learn the times without forge mode, so it prepares them if the wanna try competetive playlists, as they then know the timers, and can work of that

And, I know it isn’t my argument, but WRGGuntDevil2, be more civil.

18

> Well guess what, what do you think competitive people or pros do when they pickup a power weapon? They keep a mental clock on when said power weapon is going to spawn again.

Really? They also sprint, and miss shots due to bullet spread, and use AA’s when available. That doesn’t mean those are good things.

> You’re right Halo isn’t competitive because clearly having MLG and that Halo 4 tournament is a clear sign that HALO is a casual game.

I never said it wasn’t? You just have no reading comprehension and took my quote out of context.

> Its really quite sad that you fail to see that mentally having to know when a PW spawns is a challenging thing to do.

It’s also entirely unnecessary. The point of power weapons is to be encourage combat and place an additional variable onto the game, not to train your brain.

> Also what made playing Halo taking skill to play is all about multitasking not being spoon fed spawns and when they spawn.

What makes Halo take skill to play is the aiming, strafing, and metagame i.e. second to second thought process. Because it’s a shooter. Clan Arena in Quake doesn’t even have map pickups and takes just as much, if not more skill, than Halo does.

As said above, are you going to demand that the game clock and the game score be removed? If not you are being inconsistent in logic, as those things can also be timed and recorded mentally, and requiring players to do that would make the game even more challenging, right?

Why not make it so you can’t spawn in until you do a puzzle on waypoint beforehand, meaning the fastest puzzle solver has the advantage? That would be some serious multitasking and thus beneficial to the game, right?

You people are completely insufferable. Anything that is convenient and within the realm of the game itself is babying I guess. I guess Halo isn’t hardcore unless you are doing a million things besides just playing Halo.

19

> > > There is a big difference in timing weapon spawns mentally and letting the game do it for you or a stop clock. When you are, you are multitasking, always putting in some effort into being aware of the clock (giving up awareness you could have spent on things happening around you instead). In a very hectic game, always keeping track of the time is actually a hard thing to do.
> >
> > I wish I still had that quote from someone over at Team Beyond. Essentially, more difficult is not the same as more competitive. ‘Halo isn’t competitive unless you are washing dishes while juggling chainsaws while answering phones while playing the game’.
> >
> > It’s a -Yoinking!- game. More specifically, it’s a -Yoinking!- shooter. <mark>The only multitasking required should be you thinking about your actions while playing the game, not doing math calculations and trying to pull things out from your memory.</mark>
> >
> > Or, as said earlier, should we remove the score limit and the clock and have someone keep track of those mentally or on a piece of paper as well? Halo is an FPS, it’s not Simon. And regardless if you leave markers out, people are still going to use apps and stopwatches, so there’s no reason to leave them out.
>
>
>
> Well guess what, what do you think competitive people or pros do when they pickup a power weapon? They keep a mental clock on when said power weapon is going to spawn again.
>
> You’re right Halo isn’t competitive because clearly having MLG and that Halo 4 tournament is a clear sign that HALO is a casual game.
>
> Where people are babied so much by having Perks, Ordinance, and Weapon Indicators. Its really quite sad that you fail to see that mentally having to know when a PW spawns is a challenging thing to do. Also are you -Yoinking!- kidding me that excuse to keep weapon indicators is completely unheard of. I’ve never heard of such as saying as ok guys let me get my stopwatch out or let me powerup my app. Also you do realize a regular stopwatch can’t hold multiple different time stamps? For example on Uncaged in Reach you have to keep track of shotty, snipe, rockets, and grenade launchers. While a stopwatch can only keep track of one of those times.
>
> Also what made playing Halo taking skill to play is all about multitasking not being spoon fed spawns and when they spawn.

> > Well guess what, what do you think competitive people or pros do when they pickup a power weapon? They keep a mental clock on when said power weapon is going to spawn again.
>
> Really? They also sprint, and miss shots due to bullet spread, and use AA’s when available. That doesn’t mean those are good things.
>
>
>
> > You’re right Halo isn’t competitive because clearly having MLG and that Halo 4 tournament is a clear sign that HALO is a casual game.
>
> I never said it wasn’t? You just have no reading comprehension and took my quote out of context.
>
>
>
> > Its really quite sad that you fail to see that mentally having to know when a PW spawns is a challenging thing to do.
>
> It’s also entirely unnecessary. The point of power weapons is to be encourage combat and place an additional variable onto the game, not to train your brain.
>
>
>
> > Also what made playing Halo taking skill to play is all about multitasking not being spoon fed spawns and when they spawn.
>
> What makes Halo take skill to play is the aiming, strafing, and metagame. Because it’s a shooter. Clan Arena in Quake doesn’t even have map pickups and takes just as much, if not more skill, than Halo does.
>
> As said above, are you going to demand that the game clock and the game score be removed? If not you are being inconsistent in logic, as those things can ALSO POTENTIALLY BE TIMED AND RECORDED MENTALLY.

In regards to map markers, I feel this was the best comprimise:

they only appear when your within 5 feet or so of the weapon. this lets newbies find the locations a bit better. If map ordinance is to return, it needs to come under the effects of max on map, so we do not end up with 6 sniper rifles on Ragnarok scenarios again, also, if you go to the position that the ordinance will drop in, there it will show a timer of its next spawn, but only within that 5 feet range mentioned above. this method can be removed in competitive playlists, and I do not see it affecting social playlists dramaticallly. players get to learn the times without forge mode, so it prepares them if the wanna try competetive playlists, as they then know the timers, and can work of that

And, I know it isn’t my argument, but WRGGuntDevil2, Ramir3z77 please be more civil.

20

Double post sry