4sk Magnum is a terrible idea -- how to do right

Hello All,

Tl;DR – The magnum’s ROF should be buffed a slight amount, it’s recoil in hip tuned down, and it will be a freaking sweeeeet weapon. Which it already is, but it will be perfectly balanced then (Arena)

Now, please actually read my reasoning before making a ridiculous post:

I’ve already let you all know how to properly balance the autos, and now I want to follow up with the Magnum. I’ve seen alot of arguments recently about what a utility weapon is, what the magnum’s place is, and how some feel the Magnum should be a 4sk.

I think this approach is dead wrong. As usual, I will be using actual data to support my claims. For a review, let’s start with the Kill times of the precisions. These are minimum perfect kill times. I use this source as it’s the only one that uses frame counting for exact measurements, and his method is proven to work on a ‘known’ quantity (CE Magnum 0.6 s TTK).

Magnum: 1.2s TTK, 5 shots.

DMR: 1.2s TTK, 5 shots. (Note this means the DMR and Magnum have the exact same ROF currently. However, the DMR has much more power, almost as much power as the BR, leading to a faster body shot kill, and also better for team shooting, etc)

LightRifle (Unscoped): 1.2s TTK, 4 shots
LightRifle (Scoped): 1.0s TTK, 3 shots (note this means that the LightRifle has the most power overall, both scoped and unscoped)

Carbine: 1.2s TTK, 7 shots.

BR: 1.28333 TTK, 4 bursts (11 bullets). (B/c there is still some shield left after the third burst, we know that the LR has more power per shot – it takes out shields in 3 shots exactly (hip))
H2 BR: 1.4333 TTK, 4 Bursts. (the time between shots within a burst is 2x as long for the H2 BR – note that the ROF between the first bullet of bursts is the same as BR and LR tho. It seems ‘faster’ b/c the time between 3rd bullet of a burst and 1st bullet of a burst is quick…that’s another story)

So, let’s think about this for a moment. The Magnum and DMR have the exact same size reticule, have the exact same TTK, but the DMR has much better power as well as effective range. To compensate, it has a little more recoil, in hip.

The argument for the 4sk is that each of the other weapons outclass the magnum. But I’ve already shown that the only one that has a faster Kill time is the LightRifle (Scoped). The rest are equal, with the BRs having slightly longer kill times due to their burst fire. So, the magnum is fine on paper, but it it is handicapped by range and the fact that it already has less magnetism/aim assist than the other weapons. It also can’t compete with the SR/SMG at close range.

We can see that making the magnum a 4sk would reduce it’s TTK to exactly 0.9s. That’s as fast as the SMG. And it would have the same power as the LightRifle (hip). ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME? What would the point of the rifles be here? Basically they would only be used at long range, and the magnum would dominate at close and mid range.

However – my goal is to have the magnum useful at all ranges, and not dominate at any. It’s biggest area of weakness, I would argue, is defending in close range. It also needs little more help in long range.

Solution: We need to reduce the recoil on the magnum further, and increase it’s ROF slightly. It’s ROF should be somewhere between where it is now, and where the carbine is now. We need a magnum with a ~1.05s TTK 5 shot kill. This will make it useful in close range, while the recoil in smart scope will limit it’s spamability in long range (it’s overall recoil would be reduced, so that if you fire at it’s current ROF, it will be more consistent. But if you spam, it becomes unpredictable – SS only). Additionally, the recduced recoil in hip will make it more consistent for mid range hipfire, compared to the BR and DMR.

Problem solved y’all!! Let me know your feedback.

Or we could just stop cookiecuttin around and just bring back br starts. Sounds great I know!

> 2535449625725537;2:
> Or we could just stop cookiecuttin around and just bring back br starts. Sounds great I know!

BR starts and you’re wiping the Pistol out of existence in the sandbox.

> 2535449625725537;2:
> Or we could just stop cookiecuttin around and just bring back br starts. Sounds great I know!

Npo, b/c the BR has much more range, and bullet mag. As I’ve already informed you, it is easier to use. My goal is just some fine tuning of the already great magnum to keep competitive starts a thing.

Edited for formatting and clarity!

> 2533274833081329;3:
> > 2535449625725537;2:
> > Or we could just stop cookiecuttin around and just bring back br starts. Sounds great I know!
>
>
> BR starts and you’re wiping the Pistol out of existence in the sandbox.

He’s right, ya know. Unless we change the pistol…maybe a la my recommendations? :slight_smile:

> 2533274833081329;3:
> > 2535449625725537;2:
> > Or we could just stop cookiecuttin around and just bring back br starts. Sounds great I know!
>
>
> BR starts and you’re wiping the Pistol out of existence in the sandbox.

BR starts would only be a variant. No one actually wants to replace every gamemode that has the AR/Magnum starts with BR starts. Just saying.

> 2535453668882729;7:
> > 2533274833081329;3:
> > > 2535449625725537;2:
> > > Or we could just stop cookiecuttin around and just bring back br starts. Sounds great I know!
> >
> >
> > BR starts and you’re wiping the Pistol out of existence in the sandbox.
>
>
> BR starts would only be a variant. No one actually wants to replace every gamemode that has the AR/Magnum starts with BR starts. Just saying.

And in that game variant, the BR would be used 80% the time, the Pistol would never appear, and people will still complain that the BR is too easy to use, and it is compared to the Pistol.

And yes, people have wanted that exact thing, especially during Halo 5’s release.

> 2533274833081329;8:
> > 2535453668882729;7:
> > > 2533274833081329;3:
> > > > 2535449625725537;2:
> > > > Or we could just stop cookiecuttin around and just bring back br starts. Sounds great I know!
> > >
> > >
> > > BR starts and you’re wiping the Pistol out of existence in the sandbox.
> >
> >
> > BR starts would only be a variant. No one actually wants to replace every gamemode that has the AR/Magnum starts with BR starts. Just saying.
>
>
> And in that game variant, the BR would be used 80% the time, the Pistol would never appear, and people will still complain that the BR is too easy to use, and it is compared to the Pistol.
>
> And yes, people have wanted that exact thing, especially during Halo 5’s release.

Yes. Just like the Magnum is used 60-80% of the time already. Just saying. For a gamemode that would only be 30% of the time in TS, I don’t see any downside to having a BR start variant. People will just have to relearn how to play with a BR against BR players. Since the BR is easier to use, wouldn’t take more skill to out play people rather than just out shooting them?

> 2535449625725537;2:
> Or we could just stop cookiecuttin around and just bring back br starts. Sounds great I know!

Because the maps and sandbox are totally designed for Battle Rifle starts!

NOT.

I think a classic sight BR starts could work as the classic sight has (or at least appears to have) a much shorter zoom than the regular BR. Just a suggestion.

This is the stuff I like to see. Epic post, OP!

> 2533274902478287;1:
> We can see that making the magnum a 4sk would reduce it’s TTK to exactly 0.9s. That’s as fast as the SMG. And it would have the same power as the LightRifle (hip). ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME? What would the point of the rifles be here? Basically they would only be used at long range, and the magnum would dominate at close and mid range.

You forget 2 big points for a 4sk magnum.

  1. Everything else has more RRR and aim assist and bullet magnetism, so where it makes up in TTK against the BR, it loses in how much harder it is to use, therefore it is outclassed.
  2. The strafe would be upped.

That’s the key issue. The magnum would have a faster perfect TTK, but the average TTK would stay the same. That’s what you overlooked.

Also, for this quote, the SMG does not require any skill besides positioning, while the magnum requires both gun skill and positioning. The point of a 4sk magnum is to reinforce it as a utility weapon for higher levels of play (Onyx and up). It can directly challenge the SMG user if the player has good aim. That’s the point. Currently, it can’t due to kill times. The change would not impact lower skilled players what so ever.

Also, rifles will still be there for lower tiered players and they would fill in a niche for mid-long range, while a good magnum user can cover all ranges.

READ ME TO UNDERSTAND
AND ME TOO.TLDR- The 4sk magnum is the best way to balance the sandbox. I like how you at least did research, have an upvote.

Also, check out the Evolved settings! You’ll see for yourself it’s much, much harder than it looks. You’ll love it, trust me.
http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/14157-halo-5-evolved-settingsdetails-v2-update/

Also, for everyone else, read this.

> 2533274833081329;3:
> > 2535449625725537;2:
> > Or we could just stop cookiecuttin around and just bring back br starts. Sounds great I know!
>
>
> BR starts and you’re wiping the Pistol out of existence in the sandbox.

That’s not exactly true. Team Beyond and GameBattles for their FFA tournaments use BR and Magnum starts, and the magnum is used for clean ups.

> 2533274970658419;13:
> > 2533274902478287;1:
> > We can see that making the magnum a 4sk would reduce it’s TTK to exactly 0.9s. That’s as fast as the SMG. And it would have the same power as the LightRifle (hip). ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME? What would the point of the rifles be here? Basically they would only be used at long range, and the magnum would dominate at close and mid range.
>
>
> You forget 2 big points for a 4sk magnum.
>
> 1. Everything else has more RRR and aim assist and bullet magnetism, so where it makes up in TTK against the BR, it loses in how much harder it is to use, therefore it is outclassed.
> 2. The strafe would be upped.
>
> That’s the key issue. The magnum would have a faster perfect TTK, but the average TTK would stay the same. That’s what you overlooked.
>
> Also, for this quote, the SMG does not require any skill besides positioning, while the magnum requires both gun skill and positioning. The point of a 4sk magnum is to reinforce it as a utility weapon for higher levels of play (Onyx and up). It can directly challenge the SMG user if the player has good aim. That’s the point. Currently, it can’t due to kill times. The change would not impact lower skilled players what so ever.
>
> Also, rifles will still be there for lower tiered players and they would fill in a niche for mid-long range, while a good magnum user can cover all ranges.
>
> READ ME TO UNDERSTAND
> AND ME TOO.TLDR- The 4sk magnum is the best way to balance the sandbox. I like how you at least did research, have an upvote.
>
> Also, check out the Evolved settings! You’ll see for yourself it’s much, much harder than it looks. You’ll love it, trust me.
> http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/14157-halo-5-evolved-settingsdetails-v2-update/

I don’t really follow the claim that we are decreasing the perfect TTK, but not decreasing the average TTK…can you elaborate?

Also, it should be noted that I am NOT in favor of making the Magnum more powerful than the BR just so we can have a dominant starting weapon. That was my whole point. I think 343s sandbox approach (for H5, ahem) is great, and I like Magnum starts. I only suggest tweaks to make them more viable.

I’ve read the arguments for the 4sk, thank you for posting them again, but I know this is a big reference for supporters. However, I still wholeheartedly DISAGREE.

The Magnum should be useful in all ranges, and it should be able to compete against any standard weapon. However, I do think it should be outclassed by map pickups overall, because that’s the point of knowing maps…that’s part of the skill of this game too.

TL;DR – I understand the arguments for a 4sk magnum. I disagree with them and am offering an alternative to make the Magnum more viable without breaking the way the sandbox was designed.

> 2533274895603860;12:
> This is the stuff I like to see. Epic post, OP!

Thank you very much sir! I wanted to give a viable alternative to the 4sk camp.

> 2533274924023426;11:
> I think a classic sight BR starts could work as the classic sight has (or at least appears to have) a much shorter zoom than the regular BR. Just a suggestion.

They are both 2x. I think it’s just an illusion.

Like at first I assumed the Carbine had the same range as the BR (as other games). It’s actually a 2.5x zoom, same as the LR. Sights can be deceiving!

> 2533274970658419;13:
> > 2533274902478287;1:
> > We can see that making the magnum a 4sk would reduce it’s TTK to exactly 0.9s. That’s as fast as the SMG. And it would have the same power as the LightRifle (hip). ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME? What would the point of the rifles be here? Basically they would only be used at long range, and the magnum would dominate at close and mid range.
>
>
> You forget 2 big points for a 4sk magnum.
>
> 1. Everything else has more RRR and aim assist and bullet magnetism, so where it makes up in TTK against the BR, it loses in how much harder it is to use, therefore it is outclassed.
> 2. The strafe would be upped.
>
> That’s the key issue. The magnum would have a faster perfect TTK, but the average TTK would stay the same. That’s what you overlooked.
>
> Also, for this quote, the SMG does not require any skill besides positioning, while the magnum requires both gun skill and positioning. The point of a 4sk magnum is to reinforce it as a utility weapon for higher levels of play (Onyx and up). It can directly challenge the SMG user if the player has good aim. That’s the point. Currently, it can’t due to kill times. The change would not impact lower skilled players what so ever.
>
> Also, rifles will still be there for lower tiered players and they would fill in a niche for mid-long range, while a good magnum user can cover all ranges.
>
> READ ME TO UNDERSTAND
> AND ME TOO.TLDR- The 4sk magnum is the best way to balance the sandbox. I like how you at least did research, have an upvote.
>
> Also, check out the Evolved settings! You’ll see for yourself it’s much, much harder than it looks. You’ll love it, trust me.
> http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/14157-halo-5-evolved-settingsdetails-v2-update/

Also, I wouldn’t be against upping the magnum’s power just a tad as well, to make it more viable for team shotting. Somewhere between where it is now, and where the DMR is, but not enough to make it a 4sk. I think that could be a good comprimise as well – increase ROF, increase power slightly, decrease recoil. It wouldn’t dramatically alter the sandbox and meta, while making the Magnum much more viable overall.

I’d rather a 4sk pistol with a slower ROF Tham a 5sk with a faster ROF.

It has a 1.2 ttk now. I’d like to see it at 1.1.