If you haven’t seen the changes to CTF, read September 5ths Waypoint Bulletin. If you have, then you probably know that there are drastic changes to CTF as we know it. Before this bulletin, I and many others felt that the gametype had been ruined and the changes were unnecessary. However, having read their explanation, I have come up with a new approach to the gametype. My analysis is enclosed below:
In the past, CTF in Halo was about carrying the objective to the capture point. Each player would take turns relaying the flag back and dropping it to support a teammate, bait the enemy, or influence spawns, and then resuming the capture when the coast was clear. Our focus was always the flag, but each player played an equal role in scoring it.
Now for all intents and purposes, assume that CTF doesn’t exist in the game anymore. What 343 have essentially done is blend the Flag dynamic with VIP. Instead of capturing the objective, you are becoming the objective. You are making a decision to prioritize yourself as the flag itself; you represent the full embodiment of the flag. It is your sole job to make sure you yourself are delivered to the capture point in one piece, and the rest of the team has to support you, much like a VIP escort gametype. This not only blends VIP with CTF, but also with Slayer, creating a uniquely Halo 4 gametype. Though I feel that the reasoning behind auto-pickup is weak (there are more times where you would run over the flag by accident than times where it would be in a hard to reach place), I still think the rest of the changes for this particular spin would work given this new outlook.
Honestly, I still want to see traditional CTF in the game. For the last 10 years, it has remained largely unchanged, and I wouldn’t want to completely settle on ‘Infinity CTF’ being its official replacement. But otherwise, it sounds like a fun new twist and I look forward to playing it.
What are your thoughts given this new perspective?
> I’m not sure if I’m understanding the design behind 343’s spin on CTF. Have they turned it into a VIP gametype?
>
> CTF in Halo before was about carrying the objective to the capture point. Each player would take turns relaying the flag back and dropping it to support a teammate, bait the enemy, or influence spawns, and then resuming the capture when the coast was clear.
>
> But now, instead of capturing the flag, we’re becoming the flag? As in, we’re literally a player down while a walking objective makes his way to the capture point?
>
> Am I understanding this correctly?
>
> Sounds cool to be honest. I wouldn’t bill it as “CTF” though, because there are certain implications and liberties behind CTF which have now been removed. I definitely look forward to playing it, though the reasoning behind auto pick up was very weak. There are more instances where you would need to be in proximity of the flag and not pick it up versus instances where it would be in a hard to reach place.
im glad to see that you have reconsidered and that your a very sound thought out person unlike others on this forum =] and honestly when you put it that way it makes it sound alot more exciting and makes more sense in ways then it did previously
I don’t see it as any more like VIP than CTF as we knew it. Sure, I see the similarities you are pointing out, but it’s still CTF. You still have to go and capture the object from their base. It’s still a physical object, and not a person. That object can be dropped when the carrier dies, and that object can be reset back to their base. It’s still 3 captures to win.
It’s the same game, just now it’s going to take more teamwork to win, and the flag carrier has to rely on his pistol rather than dropping it and using a power weapon.
Definitely wouldn’t consider it VIP. That entails one of your teammates is stronger, he has to be killed to earn a point, and the VIP is random. We may as well say CTF = Assault if we are going to take similarities and stretch them enough to make them the same.
It does sound very VIP-ish doesnt it? Personally I think this new take on CTF should be an entirely different objective gametype altogether. There is no need to mix it with the idea of classic flag when it clearly behaves like something entirely different.
I guess I am just not seeing how this is THAT much different. I know the changes will effect gameplay, but not to the degree of making it feel like something else entirely, or VIP for that matter. The changes just increase teamwork importance, while the pistol and ability to walk at normal speed are to compensate for not being able to drop the flag to use your own weapon, and teh fact that people can sprint. It’s just a CTF to fit all the changes to the game over the years. CTF is supposed to be a team based game. You are supposed to work together and rely on your partners to help you. The new changes are just making that more enforced.
I understand what you guys are saying, but I think it’s being exaggerated how different it will feel. There’s been bigger changes, more drastic ones to gameplay in the past, and yet people still call it Halo.
I actually really enjoy this perspective and you are so right about the mixing of flag and VIP. Very true. I’d just like to add some history and comments of my own as I feel this the “right thread” to put this rather than create a new thread.
My thought is I’m willing to trial this for 1-2 months but I expect 343i to have the ability to rapidly update objective matchmaking and settings quickly so they can react positively or negatively to their decisions. The biggest issue has never been the settings themselves but the feedback mechanisms and developer reactions/updates in a timely fashion.
Aside from there here is some objective history and observations from Halo 2 through to Halo 4 about CTF from a hardcore objective guy, very hardcore objective since Halo CE day one…
Halo 2: great times.
Almost always happy with map and gametype selection.
With or without teamwork objective was fun.
Ranked objective without guests.
Maps that were good for objective 4v4 or BTB objective were many and well designed and tested.
Clan matches were awesome and a good mix of slayer/objective.[/li][/list]
Great population.
Halo 3: great times.
Almost always happy with map and gametype selection.
Ranked objective was awesome, with or without teamwork objective was fun.
Having social and ranked was my ideal setup for objective.
Population was solid but after years it dwindled due to cheaters and lack of rewards for winning objective games.
A good number of objective maps but clan matches were removed.
Great population.
Halo Reach: good times.
Drastic reduction in personal choice or satisfaction of map and gametype.
Less frequent quality matches due to no ranked objective.
Guests are allowed and the balancing of objective games goes out the window.
Black screen and quitters combined with too many gametype variations.
Objective losing it’s identity by crossing with MLG gametypes which lead to a very heavy population decline.
Once again little reward for actually playing the objective rather than just slaying.
Far less number of maps built for CTF/Assault and a long time after launch for Title Updates and map packs that were actually good maps for objective.
Without teamwork it’s still possible to win pretty much on your own in CTF or assault where all the other KOTH, Crazy King, Oddball etc require team work that is not found in unranked with guests playlists.
Dwindled population and far more objective holders and quitters.
Halo 4:
Seeing a focus from the developer for objective and CTF is fantastic.
Maps are looking good for objective play and designed specifically for it.
Rewards for playing the objective should be increased by another 2-4 times.
Teamwork is trying to be promoted with new settings but it removes the individuals ability to be effective.
No word on ranked or social play for objective but this will have a huge effect on what the flag carrier is able to accomplish for example.
Seems like a streamlined approach to objective gametypes will be undertaken which is good news.
Teamwork promotion and objective rewards are good things by 343i but removing a solo players ability in objective is magnified by 3 out of 4 of the major CTF changes e.g. no dropping flag, constant indicator etc. It just removes any idea of baiting, stealth or counter cap when your team is disadvantaged on defense etc.
Hopefully we will see map and gametype selections, voting, vetoing or pool to select from. This will make a huge difference to player satisfaction in objective playlist.
> Instead of capturing the objective, you are becoming the objective. You are making a decision to prioritize yourself as the flag itself; you represent the full embodiment of the flag. It is your sole job to make sure you yourself are delivered to the capture point in one piece, and the rest of the team has to support you, much like a VIP escort gametype.
I don’t see it this way. I get what you are saying, I get the train of thought,but to me it’s only slightly different than how it was before. You can still die, and the flag will drop and can be picked up by another person and be ran in. It’s not as if the carrier dies and the flag resets automatically. You are only a temporary holder of the flag, it’s still an object you are carrying. If you die, it’s not a big deal, as long as your team can grab it and continue on. Meaning, the importance is still on the object, not the person. The person is still just a guy carrying the object, if he dies, another person goes for the object and picks up where he left off. The person is expendable, in VIP, he is not. Thus, still much more like CTF than how VIP would play.
In VIP, you have no choice to be VIP. You make that choice to grab the flag when running over it. In VIP, you are being escorted to a location from the start with full cover, whereas the flag carrier is starting from the opponent’s territory. It’s still CTF. When you die in VIP, the other team gets a point, when the flag carrier dies, someone else just needs to grab the flag.
Well said Ozzy. I loved Halo 2 multiplayer and I had so many epic CTF games in across the many hoppers back then.
I really do hope traditional flag–with juggling, dropping, and no waypoints–makes a return as well. It had a profound skillset to it and I really enjoyed the dynamic play it had in the original trilogy.
But i’d be lying if I said I wasn’t also interested to see how this “VIP-CTF” hybrid plays. In other VIP games, you started off the match as the VIP and then the whole thing branched off from there. However, with this dynamic you get to choose when and who will be the VIP, and it only lasts until you score the flag. Beforehand, the game will play similar to just normal CTF before the flags are pulled–gaining map control, slaying opponents, etc.
I got no problem with this, I can’t remember ever putting down the flag to be honest. I only play BTB so you usually just drive up in a vehicle with a friend, grap the flag and drive off. Those rare times when my buddy got killed or the vehicle destroyed you just crouch and hide, insta kill them with the flag if they got close. wait for a new vehicle to arrive.
I think the changes will just promote randoms ignoring the objective and encourage more skilled players/teams to stat pad.
Objective was bad enough in Reach often becoming 12/15 minute unlimited kill slayer and now 343i have made it even worse.
I can already picture teams made of more skilled players matching solo randoms who hold the objective and farm said randoms while they attempt to do the objective.
I have very little hope for Halo 4, if they keep these idiotic changes I won’t be going anywhere near objective hoppers if I buy Halo 4 and 343i as of late are just giving me more reasons to buy it at all.
> I got no problem with this, I can’t remember ever putting down the flag to be honest. I only play BTB so you usually just drive up in a vehicle with a friend, grap the flag and drive off. Those rare times when my buddy got killed or the vehicle destroyed you just crouch and hide, insta kill them with the flag if they got close. wait for a new vehicle to arrive.
That’s how I played as well. If I ever grabbed the flag, I committed to it. I didn’t drop it and try and kill someone and then pick it back up. I hid, or ran, and waited for my teammates to help. If anything, this new CTF is just CTF with an added pistol for self protection. Maybe that’s why it’s not much different than what I am used to. The rare cases I would drop a flag was to tgive it to a teammate on top of Beaver Creek, or another ledge etc. However, it just makes it more challenging not to be able to do that. So it’s no big deal.
Variety is good, I do hope they offer old CTF as well down the line, but this CTF looks to be tons of fun and fit the new game’s implements.
I still feel like a lot of games (w/ randoms) are just going to end in 0-0 ties and objective is once more going to be plagued by a population that just doesn’t care for it.
I have ranted enough in other topics. This explanation still doesnt change my mind. I think it was a silly idea to change up CTF, especially in a way that limits options, not increases them.
> I still feel like a lot of games (w/ randoms) are just going to end in 0-0 ties and objective is once more going to be plagued by a population that just doesn’t care for it.
Unfortunately that’s something that’s unavoidable. No matter the game, you can’t force anyone to actually play the exact way you intend for them to. However, I think 343 are going in the right direction on having gametype specific medals and points such as:
> Flag Capture
> Deliver the opponents flag to your base
> 100
>
> Flag Carrier Kill
> Kill an opponent who is carrying a flag
> 5
>
> Flag Kill
> Kill an opponent while holding a flag
> 5
>
> Flag Defense
> Kill an opponent close to your flag, or help return it
> 5
>
> Flag Runner
> Capture 2 flags in one game
> 15
>
> Flag Champion
> Capture 3 flags in one game
> 25
>
> Flag Assist
> Help a teammate score a flag
> 10
>
> Flag Driver
> Drive a Flag Carrier close to your capture point
> 5
>
> Flag Joust
> Kill a flag carrier while holding a flag
> 15
>
> Flagsassination
> Perform an assassination while holding a flag
> 15
Stuff like this helps players just wanting better points etc. to go with the flow and actually play the game as it’s intended.
The more pressing issue is, how the -Yoink- am I as a flag carrier supposed to lug this flag to my base with a huge target over my head playing on a “4v4” map like Exile that is comparable in size to a BTB map Avalanche from H3? These 4v4 maps are way too large.
This decision is horrible for Objective and takes depth away from objective CTF.
Here are some flag juggling tricks that come to mind a top of my head.
H1 battle creek base flag tossing
H2 midship flag tossing from bases to top mid
H3 - Platform to Rocket Pit juggle
Halo Reach - jetpack juggling, sneaky Countdown Caps(Which are not possible with a target over your head)
What if I want to drop the flag for my teammate because rockets are spawning and he has spawned at the base? What if I want to drop the flag and cover my own -Yoink- while running it? What if I have a power weapon and I am in a battle with another player and I accidently pick up the flag? All this does is make the game more about numbers than objective prowess and induce rage to new players who are used to being able to drop the flag.
I can see it now: "DOUBLE KILL, TRIPLE KILL, OVER- oh wait I accidently picked up the flag now im screwed. 343 says they are trying to make the flag carrier more of a “badass” and make a faster-paced Halo game and they are doing the opposite of that by making this change.
I completely agree. As bs angel said, this new mode is REPLACING the original capture the flag. Therefore it is a successor rather than an evolution. It is not capture the flag. We need capture the flag in Halo 4.
I’mma just gonna copy and paste from your B.net thread Goat.
My first reaction to hearing about the CTF changes was actually surprise since they seem so off. Doing away with the ability to set down the Flag and being marked 24/7 just seems wrong. Removing control from a player just frustrates the player.
But after looking at it from this viewpoint: That H4’s CTF is a blend of CTF, VIP and Slayer? I don’t particularly see anything wrong with that.
With that said, I still want classic versions of CTF and VIP though. And I have issues with accidental pickup considering that you could be avoiding picking up the Flag to make sure the immediate area is clear and during the course of a firefight walk over said Flag. If you do pickup the flag, it should be a choice: Press X to pick up Flag.
OT: The pic in the 343WU is too cute. The littlest Spartan, all he needs is a Grunt to neck-snap.
> I’mma just gonna copy and paste from your B.net thread Goat.
>
> My first reaction to hearing about the CTF changes was actually surprise since they seem so off. Doing away with the ability to set down the Flag and being marked 24/7 just seems wrong. Removing control from a player just frustrates the player.
>
> But after looking at it from this viewpoint: That H4’s CTF is a blend of CTF, VIP and Slayer? I don’t particularly see anything wrong with that.
>
> With that said, I still want classic versions of CTF and VIP though. And I have issues with accidental pickup considering that you could be avoiding picking up the Flag to make sure the immediate area is clear and during the course of a firefight walk over said Flag. If you do pickup the flag, it should be a choice: Press X to pick up Flag.
>
> OT: The pic in the 343WU is too cute. The littlest Spartan, all he needs is a Grunt to neck-snap.
I’m just going to post this in every thread I beleive is appropriate. I like your explanation. I don’t mind the new CTF mode. I just feel like this has to be said:
It’s not that people are upset about new features. A decent amount of them seem promising. The problem we have is that we expected these new features to be additions, not replacements. When some game modes were shown off, we expected options to be in custom games to allow us to change these to our liking, playlists online that gave us an option of how we wanted to play.
It’s sad that a game that prides itself on customizable game modes has to suffer from a removal of features because the developers think everyone will like the new ones.
