I posted this over at Bungie forums so I thought I’d post it over here. I’m changing it up a little bit though for you guys and gals.
So I have made this simple chart to demonstrate how Halo maps have been on the decline. I chose to keep Halo CE out of this considering it wasn’t online enabled.Here is the chart
NOTE: I am well aware that this may be just my opinion but I feel that most veterans of the Halo series would agree. I was also slightly figuring in the popularity of certain maps so it isn’t just all my opinion.Lets figure out why Halo Reach maps are just not up to par…
We’ll start with Halo 2.
Halo 2 was filled with awesome maps that fit their roles very well. Even the maps that I wasn’t really fond of worked really great with what they were made for. Symmetrical Arena Style maps worked very well for team slayer (the bread and butter of all Halo matchmaking). Medium sized maps all worked very well with objective games. Larger scale maps made BTB something worth playing in Halo 2. And the best part of Halo 2 was the maps diversity. A bunch of the maps worked well for anything from 2v2’s all the way to 8v8’s (point out a Reach map that can do that). Oh and the launch maps and DLC maps were great.
Lets move on the Halo 3.
Halo 3’s map selection felt a little off… Most of the maps fit their respective roles. One of the biggest problems I had with Halo 3 though is it felt like they started getting away from a key component of what made Halo 2 so enjoyable… awesome 4v4 maps. Most of the maps had terrible flow including the few maps that were trying to be symmetrical. While most of the maps fit their roles well they were only built for their single roles limiting the maps to certain playlists.
On to Reach…
As stated in the title these maps just feel like spaces. Imagine playing Halo in a certain sectioned off area of any part of the world. That’s what Reaches maps feel like to me. Some maps play pretty good for what they are made for but for the most part they have absolutly no flow to them. Where are the small maps in this game for doubles or even team slayer? The smallest maps in this game are Medium sized maps. The best part of Reach maps is Forgeworld. But even with forge maps you are forced to look at the same boring greys. Forgeworld maps also tend to have more lag and are nearly impossible to play on splitscreen. The DLC maps were pretty good but Reach is still missing smaller maps. Really Reach is missing maps in general. Even with the current DLC I feel like Reach has very little to offer when it comes to maps.
Do you feel that the maps have been lacking as of the more recent games? What are your thoughts on the maps all through out the series?
I know this is just my opinion before anyone mentions it but I really feel that if the map style goes back to the way it was in Halo 2 more people would enjoy the game. Halo 2 maps played perfectly for their respective playlists and their was no area left unfilled be it BTB all the way down to 2v2 or 1v1 and all maps were set up well for each gametype. The map selection in Halo 2 gave me something to keep going back to without getting bored for years on end. I can’t say the same about Reach. I am still playing it I’m just not having nearly as much fun.
Please 343 take a hard look at Halo 2 map design. I’m not saying remake the H2 maps just take some notes.
personally i disagree with your opinion on a lot of the maps. and you should include halo ce as well as the forge world variants. you forge world labeled as “good” when most of the forge world map that are present in matchmaking are widely ridiculed by the reach community. Paradiso, Atom, cliffhanger, pinnacle, and uncaged; these are disliked for a variety of reason. that’s just one example.
i would suggest a new forge world with a forge pallette that has some different colors to choose from(not just gray), and it has to be made free or very cheap. so that the majority of the community can enjoy it together.
Maps in Reach are only open spaces to people trying to range-shoot all the time. There is more clutter and cover than any Halo before. Perhaps the enemies are usually behind this cover
Nothing against range shooting, I prefer a bit of range myself. Just saying the maps aren’t wide opens spaces like previous Halos are (ironic).
I agree OP. sword base i liked at first but i have now come to hate it. Its nothing but a camp and grenade the hell out of the halls. The only maps i like are Uncaged, Condemend…and wow i honestly cant think of any others. We needmore maps like halo 2. Thats why ive started playing team classic. It has the awsome maps from back in the day BUT with the booring greys :(. New forge world map please so we can see remakes with diff color scheme.
> I have to say that i’m kind of tired of people complaining about halo reach.
Nice input bro… I’m kinda tired of taking time to make threads just so people can give me one liner “feedback” about how they are sick of people complaining about a game that deserves some criticism. This isn’t a Reach complaint thread. I’m not asking 343 to make Reach better… I’m simply suggesting to go back to the roots of what made maps fun for the next title. This thread has as much to do with Reach as it does with the sub par map selection that was in Halo 3 (and possibly how big of a Halo 2 fanboy I am?). Although Reach just hits rock bottom when it comes to maps. Yeah… It’s nice to have pretty sweet DLC maps but what about Launch maps? Why do you think so many people stopped playing Reach weeks after launch? Halo 2 held up strong for a few years. That probably had something to do with the fact that their really wasn’t toooo many games out at that time. Even Halo 3 held a nice population for a while.
I didn’t even want to talk about Reach’s flaws but since you make my post out to be a Reach hate thread might as well…
Reach has several flaws for the social player and competitve player alike.
Hmmm everyone seems to like the BR… Let’s make something similar but lets make it single shot with random bloom.
Oh I see everyone happens to hate the Juggernaught perk from CoD4… Let’s make something that even more people hate. We’ll call it Armor Lock
Maps as explained in OP.
The absense of Ranked and Unranked really hit’s a nerve with me. I play a bunch and I’m still pretty terrible. I’d rather play with people that would like to run around and enjoy their time (social players) than be stuck against hardcores (ranked players). And I’m sure the hardcore players would rather have a challenge…
Going in a playlist solo is almost a guarentee that you will be paired up against a full team.
I don’t even like the vote system to tell you the truth. Who likes Swordbase? Who wants to play it almost every other game?
As stated in 5 and 6 you get paired up against full teams and not only are they almost usually going to win but they also own the vote. You’re going to play on what that full team wants and they have a big selection to choose from.
NOTE: I still play Reach even with all of the things I find wrong with the game. I can still find some fun playing it but don’t excpect Reachs population to all of a sudden hit a higher note in the near future. With a new Modern Warfare game coming out and a new Gears of War I think we’ve seen the peak of population in this game. Halo 3 still had a decent amount of players when other bigger titles released. Lets see how Reach holds up over the years. Hopefully 343 can bail us out and release a solid title focusing on the things that make Halo a fun a unique experience.
A good game deserves some criticism. All games have flaws, and should be criticized. But when people complain day in and day out about every little thing that could be better about halo reach, well, it gets old. But good for you for thinking about what could be better about this game, good luck getting 343i to listen to you.
In my opinion, the thing that hurt Reach’s multiplayer the most was the maps. It’s not the armor abilities’ fault, at least not directly. The thing is, it’s very, very hard to design a map that is fair for everyone when you have people running around invisible, flying, sprinting, dodging, throwing holograms, and even sitting there, invincible. This is also why the DLC maps are much, much better. They had better knowledge about balancing the abilities, making the maps more fun to play on. Just my two cents on Reach.
I’d also just like to say that I feel Halo 2 had the most balanced, and most fun, maps in the entire series. If 343i can make the maps feel the same as Halo 2’s, without straight up copying them, then I’ll be very pleased.
> In my opinion, the thing that hurt Reach’s multiplayer the most was the maps. It’s not the armor abilities’ fault, at least not directly. The thing is, it’s very, very hard to design a map that is fair for everyone when you have people running around invisible, flying, sprinting, dodging, throwing holograms, and even sitting there, invincible. This is also why the DLC maps are much, much better. They had better knowledge about balancing the abilities, making the maps more fun to play on. Just my two cents on Reach.
>
> I’d also just like to say that I feel Halo 2 had the most balanced, and most fun, maps in the entire series. If 343i can make the maps feel the same as Halo 2’s, without straight up copying them, then I’ll be very pleased.
I agree. Halo 2 maps were the best. If 343 makes maps even slightly similar to Halo 2 maps for the next game I’ll be a happy dude.
The maps that you picked for halo3 as good are almost all BTB maps? The real skilled people liked the small maps more. Also the maps of halo 3 didn’t have a bad flow at all, they all have the same design aspects halo2’s mp maps had.
Me and my friends are more fan of the pit, gaurdian, construct, heretic, blackout, beaver creek, turf, ivory tower, sanctuary, warlock, narrows, valhalla and ghost town.
You can say whatever you want about halo maps, but people are always gonna disagree with you… For the simple fact that everyone’s opinion is different.
Also the halo reach maps are this bad, because it was the first time bungie made maps for reach. So they had less experience in making maps for this game.
> I agree. Halo 2 maps were the best. If 343 makes maps even slightly similar to Halo 2 maps for the next game I’ll be a happy dude.
I also agree.
> Also the halo reach maps are this bad, because it was the first time bungie made maps for reach. So they had less experience in making maps for this game.
I don’t think that is the reason that there are some terrible maps on Reach.
The reason i believe there a terrible maps are simply because of the way the were designed. Think about it, every game company makes one or more bad maps that no one can stand, its not because they are inexperienced, its simply because they designed and structured it differently.
Well they havo no experience with all the AA’s so I think that’s why the maps failed for reach. They had to many random factors to keep in mind too make good maps.
> Well they havo no experience with all the AA’s so I think that’s why the maps failed for reach. They had to many random factors to keep in mind too make good maps.
Don’t give them excuses as to why they suck at making maps now adays. I rated a bunch of H3 btb maps high because they were the better maps of Halo 3. The maps you mentioned from H3 weren’t bad except for Ghost Town. It really did have no flow. Either way I respect your opinion.
> Well they havo no experience with all the AA’s so I think that’s why the maps failed for reach. They had to many random factors to keep in mind too make good maps.
im definitely going to agree with this,
AA’s change gameplay significantly and
rather then adjust the map style to keep the AA’s balanced
they kept the same frame of mind as previous halos when designing the maps,
which is why the DLC maps are a significant improvement over the stock maps.
(also cant help but feel bungie lost that passion by the end)
so instead of hoping for better maps in the next game how about,
woo hopefully 343i can bring us more great maps via dlc
> Maps in Reach are only open spaces to people trying to range-shoot all the time. There is more clutter and cover than any Halo before. Perhaps the enemies are usually behind this cover
>
> Nothing against range shooting, I prefer a bit of range myself. Just saying the maps aren’t wide opens spaces like previous Halos are (ironic).
This is why I don’t like Reach. It doesn’t feel like Halo. When I think of Halo, I think of a fantastic arena FPS, much like Quake or UT. Now, when I think of Reach, I think of a CoD-like game with Halo skins. People just hide behind things and pop out when they feel comfortable. If you look at past Halo maps they’re generally pretty open and the player with the best aiming skills wins. Reach’s maps have cover, a lot of cover, and being good at aiming won’t necessarily give you the kill as your opponent just sprints to cover. Bloody annoying. It also causes a lot of camping. Just look at Swordbase… >_>
For 343’s Halo game I’d really like it if you went back to Halo’s MP roots. An arena game. Make Arena maps in exotic locations, and have a lot of variety in the locals. Last thing, don’t even consider bloom or AAs!
But if we returned to CE’s roots, we’d be right where we are now. CE had lots of cover compared to 2 and 3. Not as much as Reach but definitely more than 2 or 3.
Will say, Halo2’s DLC got much better with the cover though. Don’t get me wrong there. Halo3 did the same thing with its Mythic Pack. Only in the end was I happy with Halo2 and 3’s selection of maps.
I’m not against maps that are free of clutter. But at the same time, I don’t want all my maps to be free of clutter. I like maps that vary in feel and play. I like it when maps cater to different styles. I hate it when maps cater to similar styles across the board.
> But if we returned to CE’s roots, we’d be right where we are now. CE had lots of cover compared to 2 and 3. Not as much as Reach but definitely more than 2 or 3.
>
> Will say, Halo2’s DLC got much better with the cover though. Don’t get me wrong there. Halo3 did the same thing with its Mythic Pack. Only in the end was I happy with Halo2 and 3’s selection of maps.
>
> I’m not against maps that are free of clutter. But at the same time, I don’t want all my maps to be free of clutter. I like maps that vary in feel and play. I like it when maps cater to different styles. I hate it when maps cater to similar styles across the board.
When I said Halo’s MP roots I meant Halo 2, as that’s where it really started (MP wise). A lot of CE’s maps had hardly any cover at all though, so I don’t know where you got that from
For a map to be good it needs to cater to different styles at the same time. To have a map specifically for long ranged combat, or one dedicated to CQB (cough camping cough) is bad map design imo. Anyway, I feel 4v4 arena styled maps, with a few epic BTB maps thrown in is what makes Halo, Halo (map-wise that is). If you don’t feel that way, then what can I say? You have a different opinion. Though, you say the Mythic Map Pack got the amount of cover right. I have to strongly disagree. That’s when they went -Yoinking!- overboard with cover. Assembly is one of the worst maps in all of Halo history. Orbital is a mess too.
