343 maps have ruined Halo gameplay

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

I’ve finally figured out why I can’t stand so much of Halo 5. Yes, there are annoying gimmicks like Spartan Charge. Yes, there are broken things like the radar. Yes, there are seemingly inconsistent melees, weapon damages, etc. And I do have fun playing the game, truly. But when I’m not enjoying Halo 5, it’s more often because of the maps.

Most, if not all, of the maps are built with clamber in mind, as well as the starting weapon being a handgun. The flaw here is that 343i have moved away from real maps and moved towards giant clusters of objects with no real movement patterns, choke points, or strategy.

Take Plaza, the biggest culprit. It’s a collection of cars and trucks to jump on, low-hanging edges to clamber up to, and an almost endless supply of windows, doorways, and ledges, each one at a slightly different height than the other. This creates a chaotic battlefield where getting shot from literally any direction is a real, and all too common, possibility.

If you look at The Rig, it’s nearly the same thing, just spread out with walkways rather than rooms. If you are anywhere near the BR/Sniper area, you can be shot from any direction. 343i have seemingly strategically removed walls to allow this. The result is endless grenade spam and pistol shooting.

Halo 5 is much less about situational awareness, map awareness, and map movement, than it is about getting the drop on unsuspecting (albeit because of the sloppy radar) enemies. In almost all previous Halo’s, I could secure a weapon (Sniper, Shotgun, BR, whatever), move around the map by planning out enemies’ movements, and set up to either defend or attack. Now, I run around like a chicken with its head cut off, hoping that the enemy around the corner isn’t looking my way and I can get an early shot off.

The fast paced nature of Halo 5, along with the overpowered Pistol (for how the maps are designed), and the sloppy, chaotic map design, have created a game that isn’t as strategic as any before it. An yes, there is strategy involved, just not the typical strategy we’ve known for years from Halo.

TL;DR: The ability to be shot from any direction on most, if not all, of the maps, along with clamber being built into them in lieu of actual strategic routes, has created chaotic gameplay that doesn’t promote map movement, negates most strategies, and frustrates players who are seen a split second before they see their enemy.

2

So then what would you consider a good map that tailors to your likes?

3

I politely disagree with your conclusion. Map movement has been greatly enhanced precisely because of clamber and other specialty jumps. 343 has done a superb job with the Arena maps.

4

having power weapons in areas that can easily be contested is in my opinion good map design. It makes going for the weapon a risk and creates a risk reward dynamic. Now you say that having maps made with clamber in mind is a bad idea, i think its a great idea because it allows for dynamic gameplay, i like it when a situation can turn into something completely different in a split second, it makes me think on my feet and honestly makes me perform in way that others games do not. Now that being said, getting cross mapped is annoying but is easily avoidable by recognizing and partaking in the clamber routes built into the map, small ledges can be used to access escape areas as well as counter an enemy that get the jump on you. I dont think all the maps are good maps but saying clamber ruins all of them is just not accurate.

5

I agree with the OP. There haven’t been good maps in halo since halo 3

6

> 2625759425622793;3:
> I politely disagree with your conclusion. Map movement has been greatly enhanced precisely because of clamber and other specialty jumps. 343 has done a superb job with the Arena maps.

You’re kidding me with this type of response, right? There’s a huge difference between “map movement” and “movement.” Clamber is a tool for “movement”, while pathways, jumps, lifts, corners, open areas are used for “map movement.” Clamber absolutely demolishes all strategic “map movement”, just like Jet Pack did in Reach and Halo 4.

> 2533274847916490;2:
> So then what would you consider a good map that tailors to your likes?

For example, look at Haven, the best Halo 4 map. It had long sight lines, separated by a few barriers that were tall enough to jump to but not tall enough to shoot over, and walls/pathways that created movement in a circular fashion without getting popped by a pistol from the complete opposite side of the map. Just played both Truth and Regret, and if I go anywhere that isn’t a home base, I get popped from behind, the side, and in front.

7

Haven was also very flat and open. Those long sight lines allowed for precision weapons to excel, which lead to that map being a favorite. Whoever had the better aim would come out on top. Truth has more of the rotational feeling to it, but that doesn’t mean you should move in that pattern. Each H5 map has a part of the map with a distinct advantage. If you can find that advantage and set up with a team you’ll win (as long as each of you win your fights). H5 is all about map control. If you control the map you get the power weapons and you’ll never be shot from behind.

8

> 2535285325974378;5:
> I agree with the OP. There haven’t been good maps in halo since halo 3

if good is the standard then countdown and zealot are good, also for BTB breakpoint was tops.

also for reference i would say chillout, prisoner and aerowalk from quake are examples of good map design.

people use buzzwords like dynamic or skillful without explaining anything at all, you need to weigh up the options before and after.

  1. there is no performance element in clamber, it is binary either you did it or not, every jump has clamber as a fail-safe so unless you were way off anyway then you will make it. Without clamber jumping and map movement become more skillful as there is varying degrees you can fail or make a jump, overshooting, undershooting, being in a bad position from landing wrong etc. much like sprint, clamber is just an illusion, if you can reach things that are higher elevation from clambering it begs the question of can it be designed in a way without clamber (yes) or should the player be rewarded this position by just pressing a button.

  2. an instant kill or gap closer (spartan charge), an easy escape (slide) and an easy way to throw off your opponents (stabilizers) are all bad for those reasons, they don’t require skill to perform and make the game more unnecessarily chaotic.

  3. sprint is a given, just up move speed and strafe acceleration, then you’ll be able to move and perform an action at all times, which is much more fluid and smooth for gameplay than the current clunky system.

  4. thrusters need to be an on map pick-up (evade) as they are easily abusable as an escape mechanic.

  5. ground pound is just clunky really and can be easy kills if you predict where someone will be for little effort.

they aren’t dynamic if they are harder to punish for less skill required to perform.

9

> 2533274840624875;4:
> having power weapons in areas that can easily be contested is in my opinion good map design. It makes going for the weapon a risk and creates a risk reward dynamic. Now you say that having maps made with clamber in mind is a bad idea, i think its a great idea because it allows for dynamic gameplay, i like it when a situation can turn into something completely different in a split second, it makes me think on my feet and honestly makes me perform in way that others games do not. Now that being said, getting cross mapped is annoying but is easily avoidable by recognizing and partaking in the clamber routes built into the map, small ledges can be used to access escape areas as well as counter an enemy that get the jump on you. I dont think all the maps are good maps but saying clamber ruins all of them is just not accurate.

I think you are misunderstanding what OP is trying to explain. He talks about an over abundance of “clutter” on maps such as cars or boxes. A lot of this “clutter” is used to reach clamber zones but it also takes away the symmetry that the older Halo games were known for (Halo 3’s The Pit, or Construct, or Halo 2’s Foundation).

When I look at a map like The Rig, I see a bunch of pathways and windows that wind into each other and make zero strategic sense. One side of the map is really exposed with walkways going over it sporadically, and the other side is small huts with clamber zones from mid. This map does not flow well and has really bad consistency, not to mention you can get shot from pretty ridiculous spots on it. Instead of placing objects all over the map that allow you to clamber onto ledges, the ledges should be lowered so that you can jump to them and clamber up without having to jump onto a separate object. I look at the lower part of Overgrowth and some of the cars and walls make very little sense to me. The Plaza is also very terrible for this. There are cars EVERYWHERE on the bottom of the map and there are just random windows on the top side of the map which allow you to be spotted from nearly anywhere on the entire map, I don’t need to mention how asymmetrical the map is which is one of the reasons games do not flow well on the map. Lets use Guardian from Halo 3 as an example of a map that is asymmetrical but still flows well. In Guardian, there were hot areas. Middle, yellow lift, the sniper tower, the jungle and blue room. Underneath blue room you could take a lift to snipe tower and get a jump on someone who may be camping there, alternatively you could jump up there from mid or take the back ramp up. from jungle you could go to mid or take elbow to snipe tower or you could go bottom mid to snipe tower or yellow lift. From yellow lift you could go to blue room from 3 different ways or you could take a lift in the jungle to invis spawn (right outside yellow lift. From every point of Guardian you could get to a separate corner of the map and it allowed you to have fast paced games on a map that was a small/medium sized map, similar to The Rig. It had Points of contention that was balanced from any part of the map and there were several escape routes from every area (even without clamber). The Pit and Narrows from Halo 3 are also examples of a symmetrical map that had relatively short times to cross the map and a lot of areas you could jump on and around for cover without clamber!

In Halo 4, Haven was amazing. It was relatively round so finding an enemy in a short amount of time is no problem. It was symmetrical and had top middle and bottom mid which the game would typically play around. Wherever you spawned on Haven, you probably had some form of cover that would allow you some safety from being spotted or pegged from across the map.

It feels like little thought went into maps like The Rig or Plaza and 343 just wanted maps where you could use clamber a lot or ground pound a lot but it is not really game friendly…they could have been designed a lot better to accommodate the new spartan abilities.

After all that being said, I like clamber. It really is a great addition to the game but I feel 343 needs to put a little more thought into their map designs that would make the game run much nicer.

TL;DR, the maps are very inconsistent in Halo 5 and they have a lot of seemingly randomly placed clutter that clogs the map up and a lot of windows in half the buildings that make game play very random and make being spotted by enemy teams highly likely. (This isn’t a good thing, having the jump on the enemy is good and being spotted gives them an idea of where you team may be also)

10

I like the new maps, having played halo since ce was released, I have to disagree with you… this maps are great. One thing though, we are missing btb maps that are not forged.

11

> 2533274814708067;9:
> > 2533274840624875;4:
> > having power weapons in areas that can easily be contested is in my opinion good map design. It makes going for the weapon a risk and creates a risk reward dynamic. Now you say that having maps made with clamber in mind is a bad idea, i think its a great idea because it allows for dynamic gameplay, i like it when a situation can turn into something completely different in a split second, it makes me think on my feet and honestly makes me perform in way that others games do not. Now that being said, getting cross mapped is annoying but is easily avoidable by recognizing and partaking in the clamber routes built into the map, small ledges can be used to access escape areas as well as counter an enemy that get the jump on you. I dont think all the maps are good maps but saying clamber ruins all of them is just not accurate.
>
>
> I think you are misunderstanding what OP is trying to explain. He talks about an over abundance of “clutter” on maps such as cars or boxes. A lot of this “clutter” is used to reach clamber zones but it also takes away the symmetry that the older Halo games were known for (Halo 3’s The Pit, or Construct, or Halo 2’s Foundation).

nah it’s not about symmetry as some of the best maps are asymmetrical, it’s just a matter of less clutter, less lazy cover and more intelligent use of lines of sight and paths of movement, though it’s hard to design intelligent movement with so many options at your disposal, chaining them together breaks most designs you could create anyway, so map flow and map control go out the window. halo used to be a very malleable game, a sandbox shooter, one that benefits from the less is more approach.

12

> 2535285325974378;5:
> I agree with the OP. There haven’t been good maps in halo since halo 3

I’d agree with this but not for OP’s reason. The map creativity is a bit bland and lifeless. Having a sea creature on fathom is cool but is not halo. Why are we fighting there why are their forerunner weapons inside?
Closed maps like that should be flood inspired containment chambers or something. That’s what made halo thrilling. Overgrowth an abandoned human town? Why are we there? If they make an abandoned city it should be covenant of forerunner themed? halo has sooo much potential but like the story line it’s just bland. Halo 4 did decent but its going down hill a bit fast. Why do we also have no Covy themed pieces for forge? This limitation for creativity makes for maps that easily become tiresome. Take me somewhere fascinating not to a whole bunch of human themed maps unless its futuristic in theme.

13

> 2533274836395701;11:
> > 2533274814708067;9:
> > > 2533274840624875;4:
> > > having power weapons in areas that can easily be contested is in my opinion good map design. It makes going for the weapon a risk and creates a risk reward dynamic. Now you say that having maps made with clamber in mind is a bad idea, i think its a great idea because it allows for dynamic gameplay, i like it when a situation can turn into something completely different in a split second, it makes me think on my feet and honestly makes me perform in way that others games do not. Now that being said, getting cross mapped is annoying but is easily avoidable by recognizing and partaking in the clamber routes built into the map, small ledges can be used to access escape areas as well as counter an enemy that get the jump on you. I dont think all the maps are good maps but saying clamber ruins all of them is just not accurate.
> >
> >
> > I think you are misunderstanding what OP is trying to explain. He talks about an over abundance of “clutter” on maps such as cars or boxes. A lot of this “clutter” is used to reach clamber zones but it also takes away the symmetry that the older Halo games were known for (Halo 3’s The Pit, or Construct, or Halo 2’s Foundation).
>
>
> nah it’s not about symmetry as some of the best maps are asymmetrical, it’s just a matter of less clutter, less lazy cover and more intelligent use of lines of sight and paths of movement, though it’s hard to design intelligent movement with so many options at your disposal, chaining them together breaks most designs you could create anyway, so map flow and map control go out the window. halo used to be a very malleable game, a sandbox shooter, one that benefits from the less is more approach.

I agree with you mate. Although I wasn’t trying to touch the subject of symmetrical maps being better (as Guardian was asymmetrical) but that it bring a level of consistency to the game play. I’m with you on less clutter and I agree that more intelligent lines of sight would really help some of these issues the maps have. It hard to design something that will fit the gameplay for Halo 5 but I believe with the technology available now, it can be done with some brainstorming and hard work.

Also, it’s nice having a civil discussion on here out of the many -Yoink- fests you can see.

14

> 2533274836395701;11:
> > 2533274814708067;9:
> > > 2533274840624875;4:
> > > having power weapons in areas that can easily be contested is in my opinion good map design. It makes going for the weapon a risk and creates a risk reward dynamic. Now you say that having maps made with clamber in mind is a bad idea, i think its a great idea because it allows for dynamic gameplay, i like it when a situation can turn into something completely different in a split second, it makes me think on my feet and honestly makes me perform in way that others games do not. Now that being said, getting cross mapped is annoying but is easily avoidable by recognizing and partaking in the clamber routes built into the map, small ledges can be used to access escape areas as well as counter an enemy that get the jump on you. I dont think all the maps are good maps but saying clamber ruins all of them is just not accurate.
> >
> >
> > I think you are misunderstanding what OP is trying to explain. He talks about an over abundance of “clutter” on maps such as cars or boxes. A lot of this “clutter” is used to reach clamber zones but it also takes away the symmetry that the older Halo games were known for (Halo 3’s The Pit, or Construct, or Halo 2’s Foundation).
>
>
> nah it’s not about symmetry as some of the best maps are asymmetrical, it’s just a matter of less clutter, less lazy cover and more intelligent use of lines of sight and paths of movement, though it’s hard to design intelligent movement with so many options at your disposal, chaining them together breaks most designs you could create anyway, so map flow and map control go out the window. halo used to be a very malleable game, a sandbox shooter, one that benefits from the less is more approach.

Very solid point. I tried to make a forum post that wasn’t directly bashing the new mechanics of Clamber, Thrust, Slide, Ground Pound, etc., but in reality, as you’ve shown, they all come back as the sole reasons for poor gameplay. The maps suffer because 343i built them to showcase their new mechanics, just as they built a armor around a REQ system to showcase their new gametype, Warzone. 343i has been desperately trying to make Halo theirs by removing features that made perfect sense when they were added by Bungie and by adding features then overcompensating in their attempt to highlight their usage.

Maps like The Rig, Plaza, Regret, and most of the other maps are clearly designed around the use of Clamber to easily navigate the maps and Ground Pound to have “fun” getting to top mid and slamming down on someone far below. But overall gameplay has suffered, and 343i should have instead kept these things as pick-ups or not added them to keep Halo feeling and working more smoothly.

15

Hmm, I was wondering why these maps didn’t seem all that great compared to previous Halo title maps. While I do enjoy Halo 5 multiplayer a great deal I would have to agree the maps are some of the worst in the franchise for me in terms of ‘fun’. Most of 343’s maps in Halo 4 weren’t entirely exceptional/memorable either. Though as you stated earlier, Haven was a great map!
All I can say is I hope 343 gets better at map making and focusing on making a map ‘fun’ to play on. As oppose to sacrificing that fun factor for showing off the new spartan abilities or what not.
Meanwhile, Bungie who has moved on to making Destiny is continuing to make fun maps as usual! You might question their overall balance but for me what counts is that they’re fun to play on.
As a personal note, I’ve noticed that (for me at least) 343’s multiplayer has been really enjoyable for me but compared to Bungie, their compaigns and multiplayer maps have something to be desired.

16

Halo 5’s maps have little to no power positions or predictable map flow due to the ease of access to verticality. Sprint, thrust, and clamber enable you to traverse what would normally have been natural obstacles, grossly shortening the amount of time it takes to get back into engagement and harass a player again.

17

> 2533274794648158;16:
> Halo 5’s maps have little to no power positions or predictable map flow due to the ease of access to verticality. Sprint, thrust, and clamber enable you to traverse what would normally have been natural obstacles, grossly shortening the amount of time it takes to get back into engagement and harass a player again.

And in your opinion, is that good or bad?

18

> 2533274809541057;17:
> > 2533274794648158;16:
> > Halo 5’s maps have little to no power positions or predictable map flow due to the ease of access to verticality. Sprint, thrust, and clamber enable you to traverse what would normally have been natural obstacles, grossly shortening the amount of time it takes to get back into engagement and harass a player again.
>
>
> And in your opinion, is that good or bad?

Bad. One of the speed parameters of Halo is the downtime created by respawn duration, physical separation (map structure), and distance. In past games, you have to wait to respawn, you have to wait until you get back into firing position, and then you have to wait until you get back to that location. What these abilities do is essentially devalue a successful kill; when you kill someone, more importantly than scoring a point you are creating space and time for yourself to plan and position as you like. If someone can just clamber right back up to you off spawn, you lose some of that strategic advantage; with four players a side, this limitation is significantly compounded. Players are unable to assess map flow through zoning and the spawn system and are ultimately left wondering “how the hell did he get behind me?”

19

I’ve known this since day one. The maps in this game are unbelievably terrible in all modes. Most of them are winding, cluttered messes full of random ledges and platforms and the gameplay is tuned for Arena only so BTB and Warzone are horrible.

I can’t stand this game at all, but Forge is pretty cool though…

20

You’ve played a total of 19 games so far, on that account. How can you have a certain opinion if you haven’t properly invested time into the game, to learn the maps, mechanics etc? If you would play the game more you would know that H5 is all about map control.

There is nothing left to blame because you are bad, let’s blame it on the maps.