During the stream 343 said they understand Halo is a competitive shooter…
Halo has always been a social game about having fun with your friends. Since 343i have taken the reigns of Halo literally all social aspects have been removed from the game, pre and post game lobby chat gone, automatically loading up the next map gone, map voting gone, fun game modes practically non existent.
While 343 continue to make the game for the lowest common denominator (pro/competition players) they will continue to make the wrong choices for the game and drive the social players away.
343i please build your multiplayer for fun first and let the pro scene adapt your game for what they want ( like the MLG settings in Halo’s 2&3)
A wise man once said “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” how about you show some love to the 99% who aren’t into ultra competitive play?
The first reaction from 343 upon reading your post will be “getting defensive”.
Completely agree btw. They will justify their decisions to death. They will never confess wholeheartedly and show proper integrity.
They have reasons for all the things you mentioned btw. They’re very very streamlined there.
Pre-game/Post-game lobby? they have a response to that.
Social game modes? they have an answer for that.
Catering only to competitive market? they have an answer for that.
What they don’t understand is that they’re wrong. It’s really comical.
They’ll make decisions without any proof, any numbers, any metrics.
Yet when we ask them for things, they’ll say WE don’t have any Proof and Numbers, like it’s our job to do that.
Just kudos, Bravo. Bravo!
the competitive scene is as important to Halo as it is to CSGO or to Starcraft, Halo been having tourneys (and no not just small ones either) since CE days, Halo will not survive without Esports. They tried ignoring the Esports scene in Halo 4, didn’t work out too well.
It isn’t 1% as you suggest, its probably 5-10%, but those players are super dedicated and impactful, so many regular players literally learn how to do x y or z from pros its unreal, they aren’t the “lowest common denominator” as you suggest, they are the backbone of the franchise.
Its hilarious when people pretend that golden era Halo wasn’t competitive, they had HUGE tournaments back in them days with MLG, they had dynasties with Final Boss/Instinct, they had massive numbers of competitors. So no using Halo 2-3 as examples of “casual” games is just not true, the only Halo game that can safely say it didn’t do anything for competitive play was Halo 4, and that game sunk faster than the Titanic.
Before one even cares about Esports and how a game should be marketed, one must also think about what makes a game attract it’s audience. Before a game can be successful, it must first be fun, and because it’s fun, people come together as a community.
By designing a game with Competition first in mind, you are putting the cart before the donkey and severely diminishing interested parties who could have been a fan of your franchise. This is a big bloody deal because who’s gonna be the one watching these Esports? The community who are fans of the game of course.
If you drive away 80% of the masses, who’s left to watch your Esports? Investors? Football stadiums aren’t filled with people who don’t think football is fun. The audience knows the game and how fun it is, hence they want to watch people play it professionally.
Competitiveness is one of the key elements of success for any multiplayer shooter, but for people to be interested you have to be able to offer more than that. It doesn’t matter how good the mechanics are for comp players, if the game itself is not fun and attracting a large crowd.
Ranked is where competitive play belongs. Social is being ripped apart by 343s obsession with SBMM and their perception of ‘fairness’. Fairness is a level playing field, not crowding all the good players together. It forces sweaty matches, creating frustration at the experience. Halo 3 was so successful because it offered both, the fun side of the game and the comp side. 343 only understand the comp side, and it is showing through in the player population.
your conclusion is nonsensical. Do you even know what the word competitive actually means? Geez. By your logic Halo shouldn’t have 4v4, because clearly that gets in the way of the casual audience. Casual audiences enjoy tons of competitive based features and game design elements without realizing it… What were the best maps in Halo history to you? I bet you’ll bring up all those super sweaty maps (Midship, Guardian, Lockout, etc.) and super casual maps often get ignored.
the central argument is that Esports/competitive is to blame. Unfortunately, there is zero evidence whatsoever of that being the case. How exactly has competitive hurt the game? How exactly are pros to blame for 343i slacking on releasing updates? Many of the basic features and QoL improvements casuals ask for pros have been asking for for longer. Forge, Theater, Custom Games Browser, more maps, more weapons, etc. Its almost as if you think that professional Halo players are the reason for all the bad stuff (lets just use Co-op as an example, if 343i weren’t so focused on competitive they’d have clearly have it in day 1 right? I’m not so sure of that.) and yet ignoring how many of the good things that pros have asked 343i/Bungie for over the years are often ignored as well.
Have you actually played any of the social playlists in Infinite? I have seen zero indication that it does anything to put me with or against players of similar skill levels. Seems to be irrelevant from my experience for social playlists. Now Ranked is a whole other ballgame though.
ok lets just ignore that Halo 3 had more content on launch (in about 3 years) than Infinite is going to have after 2 years post launch (so about 9 years overall) and lets pretend that competitive/esports is relevant in this discussion at all.
Again, we had a title that had basically next to nothing in terms of Esports, it was called Halo 4, it had super small prize pools, horrible “competitive” maps, no skill based matchmaking at all, tons of robust and " casual" content, and guess what? It failed. It failed so hard that 343i decided to do a 180 and treat Esports like a serious and important aspect to Halo afterwards. It works both ways, you can’t bring up Halo 3 and say how successful it was because of X yet ignore Halo 4 and how unsuccessful it was following the same logic.
When many people talk about Halo’s glory days they also bring up the competitive/MLG side of it. They’ll talk about Walshy, about the Ogre twins, about Tsquared, about Ghandi, etc. This is not a game like say Minecraft with next to no competitive vein, Halo has had sweatbags and tryhards longer than many people have been alive, its baked into its DNA.
And see where this sort of mentality has brought us? Just check the current state of the Halo community and the esports scene. You even have pros becoming disgruntled at the game. The current viewers are only there for twitch drops. Stop deluding yourself.
Wrong, the central argument is that 343 forgets a game needs to be fun. You design a game to be competitive, you alienate a huge bulk of the audience who aren’t playing to sweat. It’s as simple as that. You make a game which only a small percentage of players enjoy, then you only earn from this small percentage of players.
Less people playing = less people spending = worse matchmaking quality = Infinite right now.
If they really just wanted to put up a pew pew Esports show, then why F2P? Why F2P when you are going to drive them away anyway? What they should be doing is making a game FUN first, then add competitive support after.
At the end of the day, nothing you say will validate what actually happened, has happened, and will continue to happen unless 343 changes their vision. You can argue all you like, but the results are already here, and it does not support your argument at all.
Halo 4 didn’t lose players because it didn’t have an Esports scene, it lost players because it wasn’t a Halo game. You’re just pulling convenient occurances together to fit your narrative.
Everyone knew why Halo 4 failed, especially during the Console Shooter war where Halo 3 and Reach hard carried the franchise vs CoD’s equally impressive lineup.
Halo 4 entered the scene like a CoD with Halo skin drapped on top, lost all its players as a result. And you’re now saying it’s due to Esports being not a thing? What a joke. Also remember, even if Halo 4 didn’t have an Esports scene, Halo Reach still did. And you know why? Because Halo Reach was fun, and Halo 4 wasn’t. You’re actually a brainlet.
Edit: Just checked it too, there were MLG competitions for Reach all the way till 2012, when Halo 4 was released. And no doubt Halo 4 sucked so much only 1 MLG event was held for it and it poofed, no more interest in Halo 4.
More evidence that Halo 4’s failure was due to it being a poor Halo game and it lost player interest and retention.
Oh so apparently a game made for casual audiences exclusively can still be bad? So your just agreeing with me then?
Halo Reach had a competitive scene yes, but it only really popped off once 343i came in and released NBNS (no bloom no sprint) and they removed a lot of the garbage elements from the maps. Reach had some cool things going for it (DMR, Forge, some of the sandbox elements like Grenade Launcher) but it was horrid to watch/play for a long time due to heavy bloom and the armor abilities. Reach is not considered as good competitively as Halo 2/3 were because it was a far worse game out of the box.
Again, what specifically has 343i done to support competitive play, that hurt the casual side of the community? You’d have to say that 4v4 maps or well balanced sandbox or something is what hurt Infinite, pros been asking for tons of improvements for a long long time so 343i clearly hasn’t listened to them too well there either.
343i/MS put lots of money into competitive Halo, but lets not pretend that they seriously listen to pros most of the time, how long until Desync will be fixed?
Edit: You would know more if you simply watched MLG/HCS events, it sort of becomes self evident what I’m talking about. Halo 3 and onwards is ok for watchability, before that (CE and 2) and its so blurry its hard to make out what’s going on.
it was though. Didn’t it have like 3 maps for 4v4 at launch? and the only good one was Haven? No spectator mode, horrible gametypes, bad balancing, etc. Now to be fair to Halo 4 it did have Forge/theater at launch IIRC, but it was horrendous to watch. If you think Halo 4 is an example of a competitive/Esports centric Halo then I wanna know what you think casual Halo games are.
This narrative blaming competitive players for every single issue in games needs to go. They are extremely dedicated and skilled players, that will support the game long long after many of the casual audience has left to play Fortnite or what have you. Many of the complaints I hear on here is made by pros all the time, lack of content, bugs/glitches, features (Forge, working custom games, etc.)
You may not believe me when I say this but I do enjoy BTB in Infinite massively, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen ‘pro-gamer’ moves from people in the game, its obvious that even in casual modes lots of players have to of learned a thing or two from the competitions (LAN’s), it has a wider impact than what one might assume. I was having a discussion with multiple people in a BTB game about the HCS Super and how crazy it was that G1 upset everybody… Its baked in at this point.
I will be discussing this a bit with you in DM’s, they don’t like me posting links and such.
The BR start and AR start argument kind of says it all. Neither side is happy with Infinite and what little progress they made to try to appeal to both sides at launch (BR being Ranked and AR being social) was tossed out the window.
Quickplay used to be just slayer. You go in, play a few matches, and leave. Ranked and Social offered that, and then you have objective modes like oddball, CTF, etc. But now Quickplay is full of weird modes and slayer. On top of a dedicated Slayer mode. And they put the BR starts in social slayer which kills the already suffering casual population. Now I avoid Quickplay and Slayer and just focus on Land Grab since that is the only mode that feels close to a casual match. But instead of treating Ranked and Social as different sides, they are trying to mix them. Ranked barely has any modes. Social has plenty of modes, but are throwing BR starts and SBMM into the social pool. Not to mention balance changes like the cross-game mangler nerf, but ranked-exclusive BR melee buff.
343, ideally you want to appeal to both casual and competitive players, but your decisions are confusing. Do you want to appeal to the “broader” casual audience, or do you want to appeal to the niche competitive audience? Halo Infinite has the means to appeal to both, but doesn’t know how to help either.
What? They have said they use sbmm numerous times themselves, and again reiterated their focus on it in the vid from yesterday.
I’ve played thousands of games in social. My matches are almost entirey diamond+. Sure, ranked is still harder, but social in infinite compared with social in previous games is much closer to ranked than ever before.
Nobody is blaming comp players. Comp is important to the game, the point is both sides compliment each other and create a successful game. Halo 4 was casual, no comp. Halo infinite is comp, no casual. They are equally as bad
343 might have something misunderstood.
I started to play Halo games last year and I’m not a veteran player. I spent some weekends and holiday playthroughting all the campaigns in MCC consistently. Halo CE, Halo 2A, Halo 3, ODST, Reach, and Halo 4. (I don’t have Xbox so I skipped Halo 5.)
And then Halo infinite. When I stepped out the Gbraakon, I found something strange. It exactly is a Halo game, but the open world, the upgrade of MJOLNIR, and the boss battle, all of them make Halo infinite a RPG like Borderlands or Cyberpunk2077 rather than a Halo game I have experienced.
I understand 343 might want to add something new (as well the competitive contents) to attract new player. But maybe they forget to be Halo-itself. Or just like what you said, they doesn’t understand Halo.
Halos core was always furst and formost a fun a social arena shooter. The conp scene always came after that with great game mode editing and settings. You make the game fun to play with friends and randos fitst. Comp comes after that.
There are dozens of videos on youtube of people saying the same thing that I have watched. People in general from my perspective are blown away by this guy saying it is a super competitive multiplayer.
The competitive aspect is definitely important to Halo, but personally, I never really cared much about that. When I think back on all the best times I’ve had playing Halo, most of my memories are of playing with friends and goofing around, and not taking the game too seriously.