343 and their lack of love for open BTB maps

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

Exile, Wreckage, Longbow, Meltdown, Vortex, Harvest are all large maps that have vehicles, but the “wide, open spaces” are cluttered with rocks or debris as a way to cover infantry. It gets in the way of vehicles being a dominant force on these maps, which is a big part of the fun and challenge in BTB. Examples of good BTB maps are Blood Gulch and any variation, Valhalla, Sandtrap, Sidewinder, Relic, Headlong, Burial mounds, even Zanzibar and Standoff are better for vehicles.

With the clutter, it’s far easier to stick, board, or emp vehicles which takes away the point of vehicles, which are are to be viewed in the same vein as power weapons. I think if might be a good idea to go to the feedback portion of this site and let 343 know about this. It’d be cool if Halo 5 got those beautiful open spaces again.

2

A good BTB map shouldn’t allow vehicle domination. Just compare blood gulch with Bloodline, the latter being more much balanced and fun to play because it has bunkers and rocks that get in the way of vehicle and sniper slaughter.

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> 2533274873910058;2:
> A good BTB map shouldn’t allow vehicle domination. Just compare blood gulch with Bloodline, the latter being more much balanced and fun to play because it has bunkers and rocks that get in the way of vehicle and sniper slaughter.

Bloodline is still a vehicle domination with a competent team. :stuck_out_tongue:

plus, by the cluster-yoink!- map design he is talking about, just really observe vortex, and you will see how horrendous it is for vehicles.

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> 2533274793262362;1:
> Exile, Wreckage, Longbow, Meltdown, Vortex, Harvest are all large maps that have vehicles, but the “wide, open spaces” are cluttered with rocks or debris as a way to cover infantry. It gets in the way of vehicles being a dominant force on these maps, which is a big part of the fun and challenge in BTB. Examples of good BTB maps are Blood Gulch and any variation, Valhalla, Sandtrap, Sidewinder, Relic, Headlong, Burial mounds, even Zanzibar and Standoff are better for vehicles.
>
> With the clutter, it’s far easier to stick, board, or emp vehicles which takes away the point of vehicles, which are are to be viewed in the same vein as power weapons. I think if might be a good idea to go to the feedback portion of this site and let 343 know about this. It’d be cool if Halo 5 got those beautiful open spaces again.

Fully agree, I really want those big open map spaces back, playing btb in Bungies Halo was always fun for me but I never enjoyed it in halo 4

5

I agree with the OP. Almost every BTB map in Halo 4 forced vehicles to navigate through thin, twisting paths that makes them vulnerable if not entirely useless (because it’s really easy to board or sticky them, especially with the PP and stickies in Loadouts). The Castle DLC is a great example- they were all meant to be BTB capable maps, but they played like oversized 4v4 maps. With Halo 5’s new movement abilities, the same type of map design will make vehicles even less useful. We need more open BTB maps in Halo 5, because vehicles are becoming suicide machines with extra firepower.

6

This^

this is is one of the reasons I hated halo 4. Hopefully they make better BTB maps in halo 5 because that the only halo game type I play.

7

I always really hated how in the older Halo’s if you didn’t have a vehicle then you were almost screwed because vehicle health was tied to the drivers shields and the severe lack of anti-vehicle options Bungie put in their btb maps. Halo 4 helped solve this, but also made it less fun to navigate maps in vehicles.

I’d like for there to be a mix of the two. Give more options to deal with vehicles if you’re on foot, keep the vehicle health separate from the drivers shields, but make the maps be a happy medium of openess between Halo 4 and the older Halos. Make it so the driver isn’t bored to death because there’s nothing to dodge, but not so much so that vehicles lose their usefulness by having to drive at half speed just to navigate through everything.

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> 2533274822366750;3:
> > 2533274873910058;2:
> > A good BTB map shouldn’t allow vehicle domination. Just compare blood gulch with Bloodline, the latter being more much balanced and fun to play because it has bunkers and rocks that get in the way of vehicle and sniper slaughter.
>
>
> Bloodline is still a vehicle domination with a competent team. :stuck_out_tongue:
>
> plus, by the cluster-yoink!- map design he is talking about, just really observe vortex, and you will see how horrendous it is for vehicles.

The problem with Bloodline is that there are next to no vehicles on the map.

OP I agree although I think some of the BTB maps were very good about openness. I have to disagree about Vortex and Exile. Although they had too many little tunnels for people to escape vehicles they were fairly open maps and vehicles could dominate (less so on Exile because it was so dang small). They should definitely put less cover for infantry though. Make it more long range like the hills on Sandtrap so that people have to crouch down a bit more. Spartan Abilities will also be good for infantry I think so there’s even less of a need.

9

> 2533274793262362;1:
> Exile, Wreckage, Longbow, Meltdown, Vortex, Harvest are all large maps that have vehicles, but the “wide, open spaces” are cluttered with rocks or debris as a way to cover infantry. It gets in the way of vehicles being a dominant force on these maps, which is a big part of the fun and challenge in BTB. Examples of good BTB maps are Blood Gulch and any variation, Valhalla, Sandtrap, Sidewinder, Relic, Headlong, Burial mounds, even Zanzibar and Standoff are better for vehicles.
>
> With the clutter, it’s far easier to stick, board, or emp vehicles which takes away the point of vehicles, which are are to be viewed in the same vein as power weapons. I think if might be a good idea to go to the feedback portion of this site and let 343 know about this. It’d be cool if Halo 5 got those beautiful open spaces again.

I agree with the bolded. I do hope they allow vehicles to shine in Halo 5.

I have really, really high hopes for the next iteration of BTB. I hope 343 can at least live up to half of my expectations , lol.

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> 2533274793262362;1:
> Examples of good BTB maps are Blood Gulch and any variation, Valhalla, Sandtrap, Sidewinder, Relic, Headlong, Burial mounds, even Zanzibar and Standoff are better for vehicles.

I find it interesting that you seem to imply Standoff gets a consolation prize for not being as terrible as Halo 4’s maps. I am of the opinion that Standoff, Tempest, and Breakpoint are some of the finest examples of effective large map design in Halo’s catalog. My reasoning for this is that they have distinct areas geared towards vehicles and to Spartans, but they give you plenty of reasons to risk going into an opposing area. The maps also feature nice areas with an even playing field for vehicles and Spartans (ex. Laser spawn in Standoff). The key is balance. As a vehicle you don’t want to fall on the bored side of flow by shooting fish in a barrel. But also non-vehicle types need to be enticed into voting for the map since they feel like they have the ability to handle the vehicles. I agree though, vehicles are power weapons.

> 2533274846978810;5:
> Almost every BTB map in Halo 4 forced vehicles to navigate through thin, twisting paths that makes them vulnerable if not entirely useless.

They key to this statement is that vehicles went from being a power weapon to literally useless. By useless I mean that 343i’s intention for the Warthog was probably not for it to stay at it’s spawn. That is, unless it was needed to drive to the spawn of a weapon that was actually useful. I never had to fight to get a Hog. It blew my mind, they were just always there. A cheap knock off of a once glorious machine.

> 2533274805448790;7:
> I always really hated how in the older Halo’s if you didn’t have a vehicle then you were almost screwed because vehicle health was tied to the drivers shields and the severe lack of anti-vehicle options Bungie put in their btb maps. Halo 4 helped solve this, but also made it less fun to navigate maps in vehicles.

It is my experience that in the maps that didn’t get vetoed every time, there was a fair amount of vehicle destroying tools. Plasma Pistol, Sticky combo / Laser / Rockets / Hammer / Mines / Rocket Pods / SMG, Frag combo / Brute Shot / Your Team’s Vehicles. Halo 4 did solve the vehicle health thing, by making vehicles no longer part of the equation. But really, if one does not want to deal with power weapons that happen to be vehicles why not just queue up a different playlist? Does one not get the same felling when the other teams has the sword or sniper? That they are screwed if they do not have the power weapons?

11

A lot of selection bias around here. Halo 2 and 3 have plenty of BTB that are filled with obstacles and courses that make vehicle domination harder. Halo CE was really the exception. Terminal, Destrict, Relic, Burial grounds, Zanzibar, Headlong, Waterworks, Ghost Town, LongShore, Rats nest, to name a few maps with similar design to those of Halo 4.

And Halo 4 also has open maps such as Longbow (epic map for banshees and Ghosts), Complex, DayBreak and Settler.

12

Remember that it is a lot easier to design map like that with solid boundaries. A lot less work making skyboxes and such.

But otherwise, yeah. Exile was kind of fun but the maps just don’t feel big enough for tanks- you can tell they were more designed with the Mantis in mind.

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> 2533274904944768;12:
> Remember that it is a lot easier to design map like that with solid boundaries. A lot less work making skyboxes and such.
>
> But otherwise, yeah. Exile was kind of fun but the maps just don’t feel big enough for tanks- you can tell they were more designed with the Mantis in mind.

Lol what? Halo 4 has amazing skyboxes. In fact it takes more work to add more assets to map, rather than just make it open and unbalanced…

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> 2533274857380709;10:
> > 2533274805448790;7:
> > I always really hated how in the older Halo’s if you didn’t have a vehicle then you were almost screwed because vehicle health was tied to the drivers shields and the severe lack of anti-vehicle options Bungie put in their btb maps. Halo 4 helped solve this, but also made it less fun to navigate maps in vehicles.
>
>
> It is my experience that in the maps that didn’t get vetoed every time, there was a fair amount of vehicle destroying tools. Plasma Pistol, Sticky combo / Laser / Rockets / Hammer / Mines / Rocket Pods / SMG, Frag combo / Brute Shot / Your Team’s Vehicles. Halo 4 did solve the vehicle health thing, by making vehicles no longer part of the equation. But really, if one does not want to deal with power weapons that happen to be vehicles why not just queue up a different playlist? Does one not get the same felling when the other teams has the sword or sniper? That they are screwed if they do not have the power weapons?

Fair enough, but maybe I should have been more specific. I hated trying to deal with vehicles when they were tied to the drivers shields because most of the reliable options to deal with vehicles weren’t safe to get to via foot. Unless you were playing in a coordinated team, you generally had to hope the other team would slip up in order to get back into the game.

The problem with comparing vehicles to other power weapons in Halo 2 and 3 was that they were not “finite” when you hopped in one. If the average person picks up a sniper rifle then they are generally able to get/help with about 4 kills before having to drop it and wait for it to respawn. Rockets or Laser? Generally 2 or 3 before being off the map until respawn. You probably get my point by now. But with vehicles in Halo 2 or 3, keep the enemy away from mid so they can’t grab rockets/laser and you can go the whole game without dying if you’re playing relatively safe, but you could help with countless kills.

Halo 4 helped make vehicles “finite”, as I put it, by letting even an individual deal with them by either killing them by shooting them repeatedly or damaging them so much that the driver no longer feels safe to be in it and ditches the vehicle. Thus, restoring the “balance” of the map by taking a power weapon off it until respawn.

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> 2533274873910058;11:
> A lot of selection bias around here. Halo 2 and 3 have plenty of BTB that are filled with obstacles and courses that make vehicle domination harder […] Terminal, Destrict, Relic, Burial grounds, Zanzibar, Headlong, Waterworks, Ghost Town, LongShore, Rats nest, to name a few maps with similar design to those of Halo 4.

I am discarding maps that in my experience were rarely voted for, since at that point it is an accurate reflection of the communities bias. I agree that other Halo games had obstacles all over that made being effective in a vehicle harder, as it should be. Unless your only goal in life is an artificially padded K/D, no one likes shooting fish in barrel. My outlook is that there was a lot better balance between open spaces and closed off. For what i feel is a clear example; in Last Resort there was a very nice balance of the 3 areas (Vehicle, Spartan, Hybrid) The beach was a distinct vehicles only section. You knew that if you retreated to this area you were safe. On the flip side the inside of the bases, wheel, and stone catwalk allowed Spartans to feel safe from vehicles and regroup if need be.

The Hybrid zones, I feel, were pretty well balanced (with a slight Spartan advantage). As a Spartan you had cover you could run to but you would be exposed long enough for it to be a risk with a nearby Warthog (ex. Base to Transformers to Camp Froman). As the Warthog you had lots of vertical attack points raining down on you and had to work to sniff out exposed Spartans. In a pinch you did have the ability to escape to the beach with the giant wheel as cover, but at the last moment as you passed through the stone wall you were exposed. The great thing was that the Beach was not safe from Lasers or Snipers as the Warthog, and the base was not safe from the Warthog as a Spartan. Both of these areas were very high risk if you passed into the opposing zone, but high reward if successful (Objective Score / Eliminating or Taking a Power Vehicle).

Personally, Last Resort wouldn’t be high on my favorite vehicle list, but I feel it is a clear example in it’s balance.

In my experience, Halo 4 did have a lot of cover like in previous games. It just lacked the balance the other games had between lots of cover and wide open areas and the proper mixture of the two. I admit though, I did not get to experience some of the later DLC maps in Halo 4 despite having the Special Edition Season Pass because by the time they came out I had already moved on (back) to games that I found fun, like Halo: Reach.

16

Now that I think about it, and reading this, Halo 2’s District would be a pretty good map in Halo 5. It’s got a good balance of vehicle dominant areas with sidelines and smaller areas for Spartan combat.

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> 2533274805448790;14:
> […] I hated trying to deal with vehicles when they were tied to the drivers shields because most of the reliable options to deal with vehicles weren’t safe to get to via foot. Unless you were playing in a coordinated team […].
>
> The problem with comparing vehicles to other power weapons in Halo 2 and 3 was that they were not “finite” when you hopped in one. […] Rockets or Laser? Generally 2 or 3 before being off the map until respawn. […] But with vehicles in Halo 2 or 3, keep the enemy away from mid so they can’t grab rockets/laser and you can go the whole game without dying if you’re playing relatively safe, but you could help with countless kills.
>
> Halo 4 helped make vehicles “finite”, as I put it, by letting even an individual deal with them by either killing them by shooting them repeatedly or damaging them so much that the driver no longer feels safe to be in it and ditches the vehicle. Thus, restoring the “balance” of the map by taking a power weapon off it until respawn.

I always felt that having the weapons placed based on difficulty of killing a vehicle worked best. Standoff for example: The two sets of Rockets (easy difficulty) were in a vehicle dominant zones, with no real cover (Active Camo did offset the difficulty a bit). The Laser (medium difficulty) was in a spot equally balanced for vehicles and Spartans. Rock cover all around the narrow open path. Weapons like Plasma Grenades, Power Drain, and Plasma Pistols (high difficulty) were in Spartan areas. This made it so that a skilled Warthog team could manage to take away the easy and medium assets from the other team but could not touch the hard assets so that there was always an out. Also, it takes a team to operate a Warthog, shouldn’t it take a team to take it down?

I agree that the vehicles are not as inherently finite as other power weapons. However, they are usually harder to wield effectively and skill is what determines how finite they are. This opposed to a rocket, which doesn’t take a ton of skill to use but is devastating (balanced by it’s finite ammo). On the other side there is the Sniper, which based on skill can be used for a significant amount of the match by one person managing it’s spawn to devastating effect (ex. Asylum). Typically you had five shots with a Laser and four with Rockets. I agree with your statement that you could go the entire game without dying by guarding the power weapons and playing it safe (despite these being mutually exclusive activities at times). But is it not also true that if you grabbed the Laser and BR you could also play relatively safe in your base while keeping the Hog in the respawn phase with your five lasers, all the while helping with countless kills with your BR?

I’ve seen a lot of people rocket a single spartan with an AR while a Hog was terrorizing their team. Perception of a weapons utility is important to making an enemy vehicle finite. I feel Halo 4 went too far making vehicles finite, they set their boundaries at “transport” by giving every player on the map the ability to start with the tools needed to eliminate vehicles. I do not feel one can achieve balance between two elements by removing one.

18

I may have agreed with you before Halo: The Master Chief Collection, but after playing a few Big Team Battle matches on Halo: Combat Evolved’s gigantic battlefields (like Infinity), I must admit that I prefer the more structured large maps.

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I miss the days when the hog was a legitimate threat.

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> > 2533274822366750;3:
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> OP I agree although I think some of the BTB maps were very good about openness. I have to disagree about Vortex and Exile. Although they had too many little tunnels for people to escape vehicles they were fairly open maps and vehicles could dominate (less so on Exile because it was so dang small). They should definitely put less cover for infantry though. Make it more long range like the hills on Sandtrap so that people have to crouch down a bit more. Spartan Abilities will also be good for infantry I think so there’s even less of a need.

Yeah, I think Exile was probably the best of the H4 BTB maps. I could compromise if one of the new maps was like that along with more open ones.