3 rules ALL Halo 4 additions need to follow.

This is a rehash and remake of my other thread which for some reason wasnt getting much discussion, so i thought id broaden the topic and make it better contructed.

Many “uncompetitive” functions in the game such as radar, AAs, bloom, etc, break atleast one of these 3 rules, there are many other smaller ones such as no random mechanics. Basically anything can be added to the game as long as they follow them.

Rule #1: They should not make other skills obsolete or useless, even if the functions require skill in themselves to use.

Example: jetpacks kinda hard to master, but makes even the best gernades almost useless. Breaks map flow too.

Example: long kill times make shooting a little harder, but make flanks or map positioning next to pointless.

Rule #2: They should not have bigger bonuses for defensive use than offensive use. (reason posted at bottom)

Example: sprint, armorlock, hardlight shield all are mainly used defensively.

Rule #3: A game function should not accomplish the job that can be accomplished with the applied skill of multiple aspects.

Example: ProVision makes you know where people are, when this was already derivable with knowledge of the map, spawns, enemy thinking patterns, etc.


Now another main point is HARDER =/= SKILL GAP. Example: (bad example, but conveys the message well)

Picture a 1v1 with no radar, and theres a room with 3 exits. A good player would know the estimated time to each door, reasons for going to each door, thought patterns of enemy, and the likely hood for each door. Lets say hes really good, and this results in a 90% success rate of guessing which door is used.

Now same example, but with 20 exits. Its now waaayyyyyy harder, but the player is only successful 10% of the time.

Now lets say the 2 above examples, but with his lesser skilled opponent. His 2 success rates are 40% and 5%.

Sure it was harder for the skilled player, but it alienated the skills he had learned and developed, resulting in an easier game for the lesser opponent.


Now for the Rule #2 explanation:

Someone who does hang back isnt necessarily worse. Lets look at halo 3 for an example, if someone hung back, it was easy to run. But they were still receiving the same benefits as the aggressor.

And typically the aggressor will need less defensive capabilities, if they are better. So a while balanced but slightly tipping the scale in favour of the aggressor will produce a more skilled and fast paced game.

Of course you shouldnt tip it too far in the direction of the aggressor, other wise the skills of defensive strategies would be alienated, but that doesnt mean make an AA which makes defensive strats easier. (i.e. sprint, camo)

Defensive =/= passive

Offensive =/= aggressive

These words do not mean the same thing. You can be offensive with passiveness, and defensive with aggressiveness.

Some examples:

Aggressive/defensive
Say your playing doubles oddball, and your buddy has the oddball and is trying to get away but is weak. You jump out very aggressively but with only the intent of staving your opponents off the oddball carrier.

A trap or lure would be a good example of a passive/offensive strategy.

And yes, offensive doesnt technically require more skill than defensive, but without offensive being favored, game functions would only serve as a crutch and defensive would be the go-to style for the lesser player, lowering skillgap and slowing down the game.


PLEASE discuss and post your thoughts.

You can fix the worst of mechanics if you altar them to follow these rules.

Some of the smaller ones that ill add in this part when i think of them are

Must be balanced
Must be consistent (no randomness)

Ill add em as i think of em

Id also like to point out that skill CANNOT be derived from something that is incalculable. (such as random spawns). Strategy can only be derived/manipulated by known mechanics. There is no strategy in something that is random/incalcuable.

i just run around and kill people and hide sometimes like in oddball

> i just run around and kill people and hide sometimes like in oddball

Uhhh hi lol, what?

> > i just run around and kill people and hide sometimes like in oddball
>
> Uhhh hi lol, what?

i couldnt follow what you were trying to say with all your examples making me think more could you help me out?

This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members.

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

> This is a rehash and remake of my other thread which for some reason wasnt getting much discussion, so i thought id broaden the topic and make it better contructed.
>
> Many “uncompetitive” functions in the game such as radar, AAs, bloom, etc, break one of these 3 rules, there are many other smaller ones such as no random mechanics. Basically anything can be added to the game as long as they follow them.
>
> Rule #1: They make other skills obsolete, useless, or lessened, even if the functions require skill in themselves to use.
>
> Example: Radar takes a while to learn to use, but its way harder to learn map spawns, learn to read enemies movements, and be aware without the radar.
>
> Example: long kill times make shooting a little harder, but make flanks or map positioning next to pointless.
>
> Rule #2: They should not have bigger bonuses for defensive use than offensive use. (reason posted at bottom)
>
> Example: sprint, armorlock, hardlight shield all are mainly used defensively.
>
> Rule #3: They should never accomplish a job which previously took more skill using a different method.
>
> Example: Being sneaky without camo, and being sneaky with camo. I found it funny how reach was supposed to create certain playstyles, when all it did really was making things really easy, depending on your AA/loadout.
>
> ____________________________
>
> Now another main point is HARDER =/= SKILL GAP. Example: (bad example, but conveys the message well)
>
> Picture a 1v1 with no radar, and theres a room with 3 exits. A good player would know the estimated time to each door, reasons for going to each door, thought patterns of enemy, and the likely hood for each door. Lets say hes really good, and this results in a 90% success rate of guessing which door is used.
>
> Now same example, but with 20 exits. Its now waaayyyyyy harder, but the player is only successful 10% of the time.
>
> Now lets say the 2 above examples, but with his lesser skilled opponent. His 2 success rates are 40% and 5%.
>
> Sure it was harder for the skilled player, but it alienated the skills he had learned and developed, resulting in an easier game for the lesser opponent.
>
>
> ________________________________________
> Now for the Rule #2 explanation:
>
> Someone who does hang back isnt necessarily worse. Lets look at halo 3 for an example, if someone hung back, it was easy to run. But they were still receiving the same benefits as the aggressor.
>
> And typically the aggressor will need less defensive capabilities, if they are better. So a while balanced but slightly tipping the scale in favour of the aggressor will produce a more skilled and fast paced game.
>
> Of course you shouldnt tip it too far in the direction of the aggressor, other wise the skills of defensive strategies would be alienated, but that doesnt mean make an AA which makes defensive strats easier. (i.e. sprint, camo)
>
> Defensive =/= passive
>
> Offensive =/= aggressive
>
> These words do not mean the same thing. You can be offensive with passiveness, and defensive with aggressiveness.
>
> Some examples:
>
> Aggressive/defensive
> Say your playing doubles oddball, and your buddy has the oddball and is trying to get away but is weak. You jump out very aggressively but with only the intent of staving your opponents off the oddball carrier.
>
> A trap or lure would be a good example of a passive/offensive strategy.
>
>
> And yes, offensive doesnt technically require more skill than defensive, but without offensive being favored, game functions would only serve as a crutch and defensive would be the go-to style for the lesser player, lowering skillgap and slowing down the game.
> ______________________________
>
> PLEASE discuss and post your thoughts.

im sorry sir we dont have any cheese to go with that wine

give me a break, cry all you want but you are not programming the games are you?

then shut up and let the anticipation build up for the game, if you dont like it then boo hoo, go sell it for something that really gets you jollies off while the rest of us actually enjoy the game

> > > i just run around and kill people and hide sometimes like in oddball
> >
> > Uhhh hi lol, what?
>
> i couldnt follow what you were trying to say with all your examples making me think more could you help me out?

Ehh? ill elaborate a little for you i guess…

Radar example: is kidna difficul to learn, and makes head-on fights more important. But removes the skill of being sneaky.

Things like armorlock or other defensivly biased mechanics will serve as free-bees for people who get out-played or out smarted.

And the camo example just maked a certain playstyle not neccasarily less important, but easier.

>

I would report that post, but id rather everyone that views this thread see how foolish and immature you are.

> Rule #1: They make other skills obsolete, useless, or lessened, even if the functions require skill in themselves to use.

Unfair rule as naturally as one thing is buffed, so are other things nerfed. That is why it is called “balance.”

> Rule #2: They should not have bigger bonuses for defensive use than offensive use. (reason posted at bottom)

HLS isn’t explosive proof, just bullet, fist and plasma proof. A grenade, rocket and most likely a laser (though that may not) will all take care of your Knightly enemy.
Sprint and TP allow equal defense and offense, so it’s exempt.
But JP versus trick-jumping, well it’s called trick-jumping for a reason.
Active Camo… Hiding… I guess it’s the biggest perpetrator of them all.

> Rule #3: They should never accomplish a job which previously took more skill using a different method.

About as unfair as rule #1 but still;
ProVision isn’t as ranged as currently made out to be and it must be held/not toggled off to reach maximum range as it does not relay distant information the same time it relays proximate information. AND it only offers FoV information, where the radar offers omnidirectional information.
But according to the rule, both of those mechanics “defeat” Yomi at high levels of play where knowing the enemy and callouts will net the same results.
TP is like Sprint on Sprint. I don’t think I need say more.
But according to the rule, both of those mechanics “defeat” having fast movement speed anyways.
Active Camo… It takes more skill sneak without radar or ProVision being around doesn’t it?
Jetpacks… That’s what super-jumping and vehicle-'nading were used for. Oh ya, and trick-jumping.

Unfortunately, even with all of this, the main objective is to you know, mix things up a little. Try shooting your way out.

And dude, you don’t have to repeat yourself with his post too. Delete your original from the reply to shorten the wall.

> > > > i just run around and kill people and hide sometimes like in oddball
> > >
> > > Uhhh hi lol, what?
> >
> > i couldnt follow what you were trying to say with all your examples making me think more could you help me out?
>
> Ehh? ill elaborate a little for you i guess…
>
> Radar example: is kidna difficul to learn, and makes head-on fights more important. But removes the skill of being sneaky.
>
> Things like armorlock or other defensivly biased mechanics will serve as free-bees for people who get out-played or out smarted.
>
> And the camo example just maked a certain playstyle not neccasarily less important, but easier.

well radar has always been in halo (if i remember right)and to be sneaky just be slow or crouch, and if people use armorlock and out smart people then to bad try again, and i have never played with anyone who used camo so all i know is it messes with the radar so other people will know your there, would be easier to just crouch

> > > i just run around and kill people and hide sometimes like in oddball
> >
> > Uhhh hi lol, what?
>
> i couldnt follow what you were trying to say with all your examples making me think more could you help me out?

Also, es espanol tu lengua primera?

Just wondering =P

> > > > i just run around and kill people and hide sometimes like in oddball
> > >
> > > Uhhh hi lol, what?
> >
> > i couldnt follow what you were trying to say with all your examples making me think more could you help me out?
>
> Also, es espanol yu lengua primera?
>
> Just wondering =P

la mia prima lingua è l’italiano

> > 1: Sure, absolute balance may not be achievable, but we certainly should strive for it. It is desirable, and i presume you agree with your statement.
> >
> > 2: It doesnt matter what the counter to HLS is, its still breaking the rule and the negative aspects are still there. Remember just because something has less bad doesnt mean its not bad.
> >
> > 3: I wouldnt say reachs sprint was equal, i have yet to use H4s though (obviously)
> >
> > Edit: past this im confused as to what your trying to convey
> >
> > I think i know what your trying to say and my refute is:
> >
> > A game function should not accomplish the job that can be accomplished with the applied skill of multiple aspects.
> >
> > Also, “balance” is to be sought here too. For the sake of clarity, lets say skill can be quantified. It may take 5 skills and 60 skills to use ProV and to sneak around, respectively. Or it may take 50 skills to know where someone is(without ProV), and 50 to sneak around.
> >
> > This may seem as it varies from person to person, but i assure you its more universal than you may think. Ive yet to meet a person who gets less kills with infinite rockets than with infinite sniper.

I changed rule #3 a little, maybe it will be more to your liking Reaper

A little more in depth to what i think your trying to say reaper:

The effectiveness of a possessed skill should be proportional to the amount of skill your opponent possesses in the “opposite” and not due to a game function such as a radar.

Example: strafing vs shooting
Example: map knowledge vs sneaky

This creates a high skillgap potential in each area.

Ideally, good map knowledge would net the same or close to same benefits as a radar, with the execution of applied skill. So being sneaky is still hard, but applied skill(which is a good thing) must be present to make it hard, creating skillgap.

Being sneaky vs radar user = hard

Being sneaky vs smart map knowledge = hard, and skill required.

I love it when people just slap the labels “skill” and “uncompetitive” onto anything they want.

> I love it when people just slap the labels “skill” and “uncompetitive” onto anything they want.

I love how people dont understand the concept of jargon and connotations, and then use it as an excuse to ignore the thread.

> > > > > i just run around and kill people and hide sometimes like in oddball
> > > >
> > > > Uhhh hi lol, what?
> > >
> > > i couldnt follow what you were trying to say with all your examples making me think more could you help me out?
> >
> > Ehh? ill elaborate a little for you i guess…
> >
> > Radar example: is kidna difficul to learn, and makes head-on fights more important. But removes the skill of being sneaky.
> >
> > Things like armorlock or other defensivly biased mechanics will serve as free-bees for people who get out-played or out smarted.
> >
> > And the camo example just maked a certain playstyle not neccasarily less important, but easier.
>
> well radar has always been in halo (if i remember right)and to be sneaky just be slow or crouch, and if people use armorlock and out smart people then to bad try again, and i have never played with anyone who used camo so all i know is it messes with the radar so other people will know your there, would be easier to just crouch

I think you missed the point here…

edit: nvm.

>

Reaper ive been thinking, maybe rule 1 and 3 should be considered ideals rather than guidelines or rules. It would be nice if they were possible, but theyre not so we should strive as close to them as possible, correct?

Like sure, something will always take away from another skill, but we should minimize the impact it has on another skill, while making the skill itself have a very high skillgap.

Example of what not to do: jetpack. Alls you gotta do is press x for like 1/2 a second to avoid even the best of gernades.

Example of what to do: strafing. has a high skillgap in itself, but takes away the skill a little bit in others. But thats ok since it adds more in itself than what it takes away.

Ideally one skill would be infinitely high while subtracting none from other skills, but thats impossible. We should however strive as close to that as possible.