I made a couple of months ago a Halo Wars 1v1 matchup chart. The idea is basically same as in fighter games. The difference is, that unlike in (most) fighting games the map/arena makes a difference.
I am not high level player. I have mainly played with Anders and Forge. Some games with Brute and Arbiter also (only to know how to beat some of their strategies).
Anyway, I created a google spreadsheet for Halo Wars 1v1 matchups. I believe currently it is quite bad. What I would like to see is good and experienced players to give their comments about matchups. I could then update the chart accordingly.
There is a cross table for every map. Every cross table contains 6 x 6 = 36 values (every leader vs ever leader). The values describe how many times equal skilled high level players would win a match out of ten games. The last table is called “average” since it combines the values from map specific cross tables.
Examples
Example 1:
all mirrors are 5 (5 out of 10 is expected)
Example 2:
Andes vs Brute on Blood River is 1 (since Anders wins 1 out of 10)
Example 2:
Brute Chieftain vs Anders on Blood River is 9 (since Brute Chieftain wins 9 out of 10 games)
P.S. If you think the whole idea is limited, then please do not post at all. O.o
Anders vs Prophet on Pirth should be 9.9 out of 10, not 7. =D Arbiter also has a clear advantage vs Anders on Release and Tundra since all you really have to do is go double summit banshees and rage a little when necessary. So that should probably be a 6 or 7 instead of 5. Brute and Prophet have a huge advantage vs Arbiter on most of the maps. Tundra, Release, and Barrens are his best maps vs the other covenant, but they still probably favor Prophet/Brute. There are lot of numbers I disagree with there, but I guess it’s somewhat accurate.
I updated the values according to your post and marked the background with green (I also marked the Anders vs Brute on Blood River with green, since you once commented that Brute should win 90 % of those matches).
I hope that other players will post also their opinions to make the chart more complete and accurate. Thanks in advantage for every poster.
P.S. For now on the values with green background are values from high level players. Those should be pretty accurate (± 1 to one direction or another at most).
I think anders has a big disadvantage on release against brute aswell. you will never get that expo up and all the brute has to do is get 1/2 turrets and build up brutes + banshees/wraiths. Also the expansion is right on the path form his base to yours (unlike tundra) tundra is a little more open aswell. I beat marcostyle in a custom on that map as brute vs anders. And that was my 5th game as brute in 1v1 I believe. So yeah it should be 2-8 or 3-7 , but if someone disagrees I would listen to their opinion with pleasure.
> I updated the values according to your post and marked the background with green (I also marked the Anders vs Brute on Blood River with green, since you once commented that Brute should win 90 % of those matches).
>
> I hope that other players will post also their opinions to make the chart more complete and accurate. Thanks in advantage for every poster.
>
> P.S. For now on the values with green background are values from high level players. Those should be pretty accurate (± 1 to one direction or another at most).
For Anders vs Brute on Blood River, it really depends on how good the players are. If they are both high level (maybe around 40 - 45 TS) but not the very best, then Anders may win around 35 - 40% of the games on that map. It’s only at the very top level of play that Brute should win the matchup almost every time.
> I think anders has a big disadvantage on release against brute aswell. you will never get that expo up and all the brute has to do is get 1/2 turrets and build up brutes + banshees/wraiths. Also the expansion is right on the path form his base to yours (unlike tundra) tundra is a little more open aswell. I beat marcostyle in a custom on that map as brute vs anders. And that was my 5th game as brute in 1v1 I believe. So yeah it should be 2-8 or 3-7 , but if someone disagrees I would listen to their opinion with pleasure.
I will update this tomorrow. Thanks for comments. Especially with good reasoning.
> For Anders vs Brute on Blood River, it really depends on how good the players are. If they are both high level (maybe around 40 - 45 TS) but not the very best, then Anders may win around 35 - 40% of the games on that map. It’s only at the very top level of play that Brute should win the matchup almost every time.
I did not knew that there is so huge difference if it is TS 45 vs TS 45 or bb2010 vs Mighty Icy.
There is a few options:
Go with very best play for both side (then it is 9-1)
Take a half way (then it is 8-2 or so)
Take 40+ level (then it is 7-3)
For most people the 3rd option would be most helpful for selecting their leader. But once again, then it is not fair for the very best. Maybe I have to think about this one overnight.
> > I think anders has a big disadvantage on release against brute aswell. you will never get that expo up and all the brute has to do is get 1/2 turrets and build up brutes + banshees/wraiths. Also the expansion is right on the path form his base to yours (unlike tundra) tundra is a little more open aswell. I beat marcostyle in a custom on that map as brute vs anders. And that was my 5th game as brute in 1v1 I believe. So yeah it should be 2-8 or 3-7 , but if someone disagrees I would listen to their opinion with pleasure.
>
> I will update this tomorrow. Thanks for comments. Especially with good reasoning.
>
>
>
>
> > For Anders vs Brute on Blood River, it really depends on how good the players are. If they are both high level (maybe around 40 - 45 TS) but not the very best, then Anders may win around 35 - 40% of the games on that map. It’s only at the very top level of play that Brute should win the matchup almost every time.
>
> I did not knew that there is so huge difference if it is TS 45 vs TS 45 or bb2010 vs Mighty Icy.
>
> There is a few options:
>
> 1. Go with very best play for both side (then it is 9-1)
> 2. Take a half way (then it is 8-2 or so)
> 3. Take 40+ level (then it is 7-3)
>
> For most people the 3rd option would be most helpful for selecting their leader. But once again, then it is not fair for the very best. Maybe I have to think about this one overnight.
The Brute Chieftain clearly has the advantage so the only way he will lose is if he makes some major mistakes. The best brute players won’t make those mistakes. It’s as simple at that.
There might be slight disadvantages or advantages but not to the point where its going to decide the win\loss.
Its more about supporting you’re leaders advantages while exploiting you’re oppenents disadvantages. All leaders will always have strengths and weakness’s vs other leaders no matter the map.
Brute in no way shape or form has a “win” advantage on any map.
> I think anders has a big disadvantage on release against brute aswell. you will never get that expo up and all the brute has to do is get 1/2 turrets and build up brutes + banshees/wraiths. Also the expansion is right on the path form his base to yours (unlike tundra) tundra is a little more open aswell. I beat marcostyle in a custom on that map as brute vs anders. And that was my 5th game as brute in 1v1 I believe. So yeah it should be 2-8 or 3-7 , but if someone disagrees I would listen to their opinion with pleasure.
Concentrate on Anders strengths not her weakness’s. This paragraph proves that its all mental, for klacka is clearly just concentrating on the brutes strength and anders weakness’s.
So lets concentrate on Anders strengths on release:
It is much easier for anders to get an expo then it is for the brute. Though anders deos not need an expo to win. But with correct timing you always get it.
Covie have 1 scout while you multiple. So if you start the game by picking up all the crates that is leader will pick up then fan out while hunting for his scout. You should easily be able to pick up 400-600 more crates then him before the 3 min mark and another 200-300 from the middle base. This is the single most inportant thing to beating a brute on release undra.
You get to attack 1st. So you should either force a recall or force him to build 2 turrets. This with stealing his crates will cripple his eco and allow you the early-mid game advantage.
4.You can get tech up much quicker. Which has multiple benefits. Also you can downtech and get money back which cov cant do.
5.Flamers always counter leaders when their leaders dont have a supporting mainline unit. A simple rule of thumb (implying your eco is better or equal) As long as your flamer are 1 tech above their leaders Y ability YOU WILL ALWAYS WIN THE BATTLE. Because it will cost them more to kill your units then it will be for you to produce. So as long as your eco is = or greater then theirs always make contact with their leader, no matter your numbers. Excluding mainline units, flamers are the only unit in which it cost more for the y ability to destory then it will be to produce.
Map adv\disad spawn from leader adv\disadv. Once you understand the leader adv\disadv you will understand the map and relize the only fault of loss is your own. I always disregarded the point that a map\leader adv can determine the outcome of a match. I blame myself for the loss and continue to try to find a way to win. Really only 1 brute can consitently beat my anders and Mighty Icy is just a better player.
> > There might be slight disadvantages or advantages but not to the point where its going to decide the win\loss.
>
> My Anders vs your Prophet on Pirth? =)
lol same can be said for forge vs anders on pirth. But in 5-10 games i started to figure out ways to beat anders. Now i can beat almost all anders who arent in the top 50 on pirth and it hasnt even been 2 days.
So yeah if i had as much experience as you do with anders as prophet then it would be fair.
Let me also add that the games i lost as forge on pirth I did not feel like it was due to a leader or map advantage. But more because of experience and the fact they outplayed me
Let me also add that the games i lost as forge on pirth I did not feel like it was due to a leader or map advantage. But more because of experience and the fact they outplayed me
Does Forge do anything better than Anders against Brute Chieftain on Blood River? I can see that Cutter’s elephant could do some tricks to Brute Chieftain.
How about carpet bomb or more flamers (because of better economy)? Is Forge even worse on Blood River against Brute Chieftain than Anders is? O.o
> > I think anders has a big disadvantage on release against brute aswell. you will never get that expo up and all the brute has to do is get 1/2 turrets and build up brutes + banshees/wraiths. Also the expansion is right on the path form his base to yours (unlike tundra) tundra is a little more open aswell. I beat marcostyle in a custom on that map as brute vs anders. And that was my 5th game as brute in 1v1 I believe. So yeah it should be 2-8 or 3-7 , but if someone disagrees I would listen to their opinion with pleasure.
>
> Concentrate on Anders strengths not her weakness’s. This paragraph proves that its all mental, for klacka is clearly just concentrating on the brutes strength and anders weakness’s.
>
> So lets concentrate on Anders strengths on release:
>
> 1. It is much easier for anders to get an expo then it is for the brute. Though anders deos not need an expo to win. But with correct timing you always get it.
>
> 2. Covie have 1 scout while you multiple. So if you start the game by picking up all the crates that is leader will pick up then fan out while hunting for his scout. You should easily be able to pick up 400-600 more crates then him before the 3 min mark and another 200-300 from the middle base. This is the single most inportant thing to beating a brute on release undra.
>
> 3. You get to attack 1st. So you should either force a recall or force him to build 2 turrets. This with stealing his crates will cripple his eco and allow you the early-mid game advantage.
>
> 4.You can get tech up much quicker. Which has multiple benefits. Also you can downtech and get money back which cov cant do.
>
> 5.Flamers always counter leaders when their leaders dont have a supporting mainline unit. A simple rule of thumb (implying your eco is better or equal) As long as your flamer are 1 tech above their leaders Y ability YOU WILL ALWAYS WIN THE BATTLE. Because it will cost them more to kill your units then it will be for you to produce. So as long as your eco is = or greater then theirs always make contact with their leader, no matter your numbers. Excluding mainline units, flamers are the only unit in which it cost more for the y ability to destory then it will be to produce.
>
> Map adv\disad spawn from leader adv\disadv. Once you understand the leader adv\disadv you will understand the map and relize the only fault of loss is your own. I always disregarded the point that a map\leader adv can determine the outcome of a match. I blame myself for the loss and continue to try to find a way to win. Really only 1 brute can consitently beat my anders and Mighty Icy is just a better player.
all of this is true and I know all of these things aswell. Im not the type of person that would say : Oooh I lost because I played the chieftain on release/blood river. I look at my own minor/major mistakes ,which I make almost every game, and try to cut those out in the next games. But if an equally skilled brute plays an equally skilled anders and they both make no mistakes , brute should win 7-10 games I would say
> > I updated the values according to your post and marked the background with green (I also marked the Anders vs Brute on Blood River with green, since you once commented that Brute should win 90 % of those matches).
> >
> > I hope that other players will post also their opinions to make the chart more complete and accurate. Thanks in advantage for every poster.
> >
> > P.S. For now on the values with green background are values from high level players. Those should be pretty accurate (± 1 to one direction or another at most).
>
> For Anders vs Brute on Blood River, it really depends on how good the players are. If they are both high level (maybe around 40 - 45 TS) but not the very best, then Anders may win around 35 - 40% of the games on that map. It’s only at the very top level of play that Brute should win the matchup almost every time.
Brute requires less skill to beat an anders across the board on blood river.
> Let me also add that the games i lost as forge on pirth I did not feel like it was due to a leader or map advantage. But more because of experience and the fact they outplayed me
For some reason I’ve played a disproportionally large number of anders vs forge games on pirth. I’ve played a lot of good forges and have faced about every possible opening forge can do and they all had to me obvious weaknesses that were evident pretty quickly. Prophet is just as disadvantaged, but at least he has more possible strats for the anders to figure out quickly enough. With forge, there’s nothing you can do with hogs, a barracks, and an expo timing that the anders can’t immediately shut down.
> > Let me also add that the games i lost as forge on pirth I did not feel like it was due to a leader or map advantage. But more because of experience and the fact they outplayed me
>
> For some reason I’ve played a disproportionally large number of anders vs forge games on pirth. I’ve played a lot of good forges and have faced about every possible opening forge can do and they all had to me obvious weaknesses that were evident pretty quickly. Prophet is just as disadvantaged, but at least he has more possible strats for the anders to figure out quickly enough. With forge, there’s nothing you can do with hogs, a barracks, and an expo timing that the anders can’t immediately shut down.
LOL Anders cant “immediatelty” shut down the expo and statements like that really discredit you. Forge, if hes not going hogs, should expand at the start and go barracks 1st on the expo. It will be impossible for anders to prevent a single building on the expo. It only took me about literally 2 games to figure out how to beat 99% of anders players on that map. Take the expo off the bat, fight their hogs b4 grend, move onto a mainline unit…win. At a 44 TS I have managed to win 3\5 of my games on pirth with forge vs high level anders. The 2 loss where do more to micro and experience then an anders advantage. I mean they where due to locking my base and a bad controller…
I find it funny that mike beaston goes out of his way to contradict my posts. I have a better win to loss ratio on pirth with my forge vs anders then your Anders vs Anders